WHO Lays the Smack Down on Homeopathy
August 22nd, 2009
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Finally, the World Health Organization has made a very clear statement on their position when it comes to homeopathy, and it seems they’ve chosen the correct one! The statement by the WHO was apparently prompted by a letter from the Voice of Young Science Network asking the WHO to “condemn the promotion of homeopathy for treating TB, infant diarrhea, influenza, malaria and HIV.”
In a letter to the WHO in June, the medics from the UK and Africa said: “We are calling on the WHO to condemn the promotion of homeopathy for treating TB, infant diarrhoea, influenza, malaria and HIV.
“Homeopathy does not protect people from, or treat, these diseases.
“Those of us working with the most rural and impoverished people of the world already struggle to deliver the medical help that is needed.
“When homeopathy stands in place of effective treatment, lives are lost.”
Dr Robert Hagan is a researcher in biomolecular science at the University of St Andrews and a member of Voice of Young Science Network, which is part of the charity Sense About Science campaigning for “evidence-based” care.
He said: “We need governments around the world to recognise the dangers of promoting homeopathy for life-threatening illnesses.
“We hope that by raising awareness of the WHO’s position on homeopathy we will be supporting those people who are taking a stand against these potentially disastrous practices.”
Dr Mario Raviglione, director of the Stop TB department at the WHO, said: “Our evidence-based WHO TB treatment/management guidelines, as well as the International Standards of Tuberculosis Care do not recommend use of homeopathy.”
The doctors had also complained that homeopathy was being promoted as a treatment for diarrhoea in children.
But a spokesman for the WHO department of child and adolescent health and development said: “We have found no evidence to date that homeopathy would bring any benefit.
“Homeopathy does not focus on the treatment and prevention of dehydration – in total contradiction with the scientific basis and our recommendations for the management of diarrhoea.”
Well, it’s about damn time!
The World Health Organization is the medical branch of the UN and is responsible for promoting good science-based medicine around the world. One of the biggest concerns of the WHO has long been the conditions in third world countries, where local health authorities range from ineffective to non-existent. In many of these areas, quackery is a huge problem and dishonest practitioners and snake oil pushers will take the few pennies that the poorest can scrape together.
Areas like rural India have become infested with quacks and traveling scam artists. The combination of desperation and lack of education and well established medical systems can make such areas especially attractive to homeopaths. These scammers do not only defraud the poor, they also have undermined efforts to improve medical care by international groups like the WHO. The homeopathy movement has allied itself, in many circumstances, with movements like the anti-vaccine interests. The spread of superstition and false claims of dangers from modern science-based medicine has turned out to be one of the biggest hurdles that groups like the WHO face. Indeed, vaccine fears and claims of alternative methods of treatment have managed to set back progress in the worldwide effort to eradicate polio considerably.
Not surprisingly, there is a response from one of the liars in question:
However Paula Ross, chief executive of the Society of Homeopaths, said it was right to raise concerns about promotion of homeopathy as a cure for TB, malaria or HIV and Aids.
But she added: “This is just another poorly wrapped attempt to discredit homeopathy by Sense About Science.
“The irony is that in their efforts to promote evidence in medicine, they have failed to do their own homework.
“There is a strong and growing evidence base for homeopathy and most notably, this also includes childhood diarrhoea.”
The UK’s Faculty of Homeopathy added that there was also evidence homeopathy could help people with seasonal flu.
Dr Sara Eames, president of the faculty, said people should not be deprived of effective conventional medicines for serious disease.
But she added: “Millions die each year as those affected have no access to these drugs.
“It therefore seems reasonable to consider what beneficial role homeopathy could play. What is needed is further research and investment into homeopathy.”
So there is evidence? Well lets see it! (remember, just citing the existence of evidence or “studies” doesn’t cut it here. You actually have to name the names of the studies and not make vague statements that they’re out there.)
One thing that the WHO would probably not disagree with Eames on is that there is indeed a worldwide problem with getting the proper drugs and treatments to everyone who needs them. However, homeopathy offers no benefit, and can make this effort more difficult. Every dime spent on homeopathy is one that is not spent on good science-based medicine and even worse, those who are lead to believe there is anything to homeopathy may not seek out legitimate medicine, believing they are receiving effective treatment.
There may be some circumstances where using old standby treatments or traditional remedies may have some value. For example, traditionally the chemical quinine was used to treat malaria. Quinine is derived from the bark of the cinchona plant and was used for malaria treatment well into the 1960’s. Today it is no longer considered the best treatment for malaria and the WHO no longer recommends it as the primary treatment method if other drugs such as artemisinin are avaliable. However, it is still fairly effective in most cases and certainly better than nothing, so if you’re stuck in the badlands with malaria and quinine is all you have to treat it, you certainly should use it.
But this is not the case with homeopathy. Unlike other treatments which may be obsolete in much of the world, but still of some value if they are all that is avaliable, homeopathy is 100% useless. It has no redeeming qualities and can do no good. It can only make the efforts to save lives and bring better medical care more difficult. No remedy or treatment should ever be sanctioned in any way unless it is at least better than doing nothing.
(also, homeopathy isn’t even traditional or natural. It was invented circa 1800 by a German guy.)
This entry was posted on Saturday, August 22nd, 2009 at 9:36 pm and is filed under Bad Science, Good Science, History, Paranormal, Quackery. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
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September 17th, 2009 at 3:18 am
Hey Steve, how about if you do a little lookup of this quack-defender’s IP-address from yoru Wordpress log and see which part of the world “Nisha Singh” is from?
Concidering that Singh is a common Indian middle name, and India being a country that has somewhere between 60 000 and 300 000 practitioning homeopaths; with 180 colleges teaching courses; 7500 government clinics and 307 hospitals dispensing homeopathic preparations, I am starting to think we are pretty much doing the equivalent of teaching science and atheism to the amish.
/Michael
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September 17th, 2009 at 3:29 am
I will cut your work short. I am from New Delhi, India. Secondly no homeopath in India is a quack as it is recognized by the Govt of India. And homeopaths are LEGALLY helping people around the world including USA and UK. No need to divert debate. You lost it. Now trying to look for other things to discuss. But I am not interested. I am only interested in eliminating selfish prejudice against homeopathy.
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September 17th, 2009 at 3:41 am
Michael Karnerfors said:
Perhaps the “atheism” is a turn-off. I remember watching a TV program several years back about some anti-faith-healer campaigners (can’t remember if it was in India or in Africa). They even did demonstrations to crowds to show that faith healing doesn’t work.
They emphasized that that they were not anti-religion but merely anti-superstition.
Another example — wasn’t militant anti-theism one of the crucial weaknesses of the international Communist movement? (The other one being that the Kremlin’s attempt to control foreign Communist movements caused said movements to be seen in their own countries as treasonous lackeys of Moscow…)
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September 17th, 2009 at 3:45 am
Thank you Nisha, that’s pretty much all we need to know.
In other words: you live in, and presumably was brought up in, an environment that since 180 years back, since the days of John Martin Honigberger, one of Hahnemann’s buddies, has a tradition of regarding homeopathy as valid. India sees the largest homepathic industry in the world. And as you say, it’s even concidered by ligitimate by the government.
This means there are huge self-interrests trying to defend themselves here. Not only would it mean billions of USD equivalent lost if people stopped regarding homeopathy as valid; we’re also talking a loss prestige that goes all the way from the single individual citizen realizing he/she’s been duped all his/her life up to the government that realizes they have been spending loads of money certifying people as “legtitimate” practitioners of quackery. Every practitioner of homeopathy that admits to homeopathy being worthless, would haev to admti to themselves that when they thought they were helping peopel, they may haev instead been harming them seriously by not recommending them to go se a real doctor. Can you imaging the guilt and shame these people must feel if they are forced to re-evaluate their outlook on this thing?!
Hence, there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell 1 billion people are willingly going to admit they have been suckered by a romanian and a german 180 years ago. Everyone stands to either lose money or become horribly embarassed and/or ashamed of their gullibility.
We’re way past the point of science when it comes to India and homeopathy. Now it’s all about defending the business and saving face; about saving themselves from being the biggest laughing stock in modern medical history.
/Michael
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September 17th, 2009 at 4:36 am
What rubbish. It is valid and legal in India and it is because it has been proved to help people. And before you jump to any conclusion, ask common man who is laughing stock. Its you. People are sure about their choices. They want both because they know alone no therapy or treatment mode is 100 % effective (including so called mainstream medicine). Not me people say that these drs talk such because they are afraid that their business will be badly affected. And you better be carefull if you write anything against India because in that case you will only be exposing your real ugly face. And When I say homeopathy is vaild, I told you that including USA and UK. Homeopathy is growing by about doubling every year in USA. There are homeopathic medical colleges. Homeopathic drs are practicing and helping people. All this shows that people are accepting homeopathy. So who should be ashamed, who is guilty and who is laughing stock. You know very well.
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September 17th, 2009 at 6:21 am
Nisha… it’s pretty evident, isn’t it, that if someone conducted a large-scale review of all the supposed “evidence” of homeopathy’s efficacy, and found it to be non-effective… that would not make the second most populated country in the world just shrug and say “ok, so we were wrong all this time”?
I mean… all I need to do is ask you: what would convince you that homeopathy is not effective?
The answer “nothing”, isn’t it? You were even prepared earlier to lay your life on the line for homepathy. This means that no matter the science, no matter the evidence, you have cemented your opinion and will automatically refuse to accept anything that speaks to the opposite. You are fanatically bound to swear by homeopathy and will refuse to listen to anythign that says otherwise.
What’s so unreasonable to assume that this kind of stubborness will also extend to all of India’s homeopaths? They have dedicated their lives to thsi and think it’s for real. How many of them do you believe would be willing to accept proof that all they have been doing is giving people shaken water? I dare-say less than one in a hundred.
No to mention the Indian health authorities! Gods what a rid ethey have been taken on. Do you think they will just shrug and go “Ok, so we were completely wrong all these year”? I don’t.
There’s money, pride, prestige and beliefs at stake here. The people that have any or all of that to lose, will place science as a very distant second.
/Michael
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September 17th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Just out of interest, what position does the Government of Pakistan hold regarding homeopathy? Are people following a monotheistic rather than a polytheistic religious faith (but otherwise from the same cultural milieu) more or less vulnerable to quackery?
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September 17th, 2009 at 8:17 am
George Carty said:
See for yourself Geroge: http://www.google.com/search?q=homeopathy+pakistan
Not much better I’m afraid when they have a “National counsil for homeopathy” under the “Ministry of health government of Pakistan”.
/Michael
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September 17th, 2009 at 8:48 am
There is a saying in Hindi Language.
Haath Kangan Ko Arsi Kya, Padhe Likhe ko Farsi Kya.
It means if someone is wearing a bangle in hand, he or she does not need a mirror to confirm it. Similarly Arabic language is not difficult to understand by someone who is educated and learned it.
So my conviction is not religious kind which is so projected by you guys. It is because of evidence that I see everyday. I am in homeopathic hospital. I everyday see cases with great results under homeopathy. Right from common cold to HIV, I have seen results. I have seen pathologies going away. I have seen cases of drug resistant tuberculosis getting better. I have seen disappearance of lichen, warts, adenoids, gall bladder and kidney stones, gastric and intestinal ulcers. I have seen patients of asthma, hypertension, epilepsy responding in seconds. Is this all fraud or remission of disease. Not at all. And we see cases who come after years of conventional medicine treatment. So yes no amount of research by those who do not know ABC of homeopathy is going to change my opinion. Yes I agree till date science is not able to explain how homeopathy works but that does not mean that it does not work. This is deficiency of scietific methods and I am sure in coming years research will prove the mode of working of homeopathy. Till that time I am not going to be guilty of depriving suffering souls the benefit of homeopathy.
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September 17th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Nisha Singh said:
So it’s about job security for you then.
Well not that I can blame you for lashing out then, because I too would probably also go into total denial if someone claimed that the work I do is based on a complete sham. So it turns out you do not only have a prestige interrest in defending homeopathy… your livelyhood depends on it.
/Michael
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September 17th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Nisha Singh said:
That’s not the issue by the way.
There are many things we don’t know how or why they work. Gravity for instance. Why is there a force between every particle in the universe that draws them together? How does it work?
We have no clue… honestly we have a very poor clues as to what causes gravity.
But that alone does not mean that gravity is not a scientificaly validated theory. Newton proposed a theory of gravity which predicts this force and bodies’ behaviour under the influence of gravity. This is easy to test and as such they have done it. Stills hold up after several hundred years. The existance of gravity is not in doubt just because the mechanism behind it is unknown.
Homepathy on the other hand fails to provide even proof of its existence as an effective treatment. You claim you have proof in that you see homeopathy working “every day”. I see a few huge holes in your reasoning:
1) How do you prove that these supposed improvements that you claim you see are correctly observed?
2) How do you prove that these supposed improvments are due to the homeopathic compounds and not something else?
3) How do you prove that these supposed improvements would not have taken place anyway?
You can’t… not in any of the above. These cases are not double blinded, so we have obeservational bias in both the patients and those giving the treatments. And you have no control groups so you have nothing to compare with. You can’t prove dickens with this because its all anecdotes and rationalizing on your part.
/Michael
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September 17th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Nisha Singh said:
Yes, homeopathy is recognized and sanctioned in India. It’s a HUGE problem and a great example of an absolutely astonishingly bad government policy. It comes down to a special interest managing to exert enough pressure on a government. The healthcare system in India really has a lot of problems to begin with, it’s a mix of modern medicine (but not enough of it) and a lot of quackery and various clinics of varying levels of quality. The fact that homeopathy is recognized is not helping.
Nisha Singh said:
There has been a concerted effort in both the US and UK by the homeopathic lobby to force the government to recognize and provide homeopathic preparations. It’s probably worse in the UK, where the policy is being championed by some celebrities including Price Charles.
These efforts generally go right to the politicians because the regulatory agencies are smart enough to reject homeopathy. The FDA in the US and the MHRA in the UK are the agencies to which power is delegated to regulate and approve medications and decide how they’re labeled, sold and prescribed. The proponents of homeopathy have tried to get members of parliament to pass legislation that would force the sanctioning of homeopathic products and bypass the decisions of the agencies normally delegated the power to make the decision.
In the UK, there has been a powerful effort and currently their healthcare system will provide for some homeopathic facilities and preparations. The science minister and several of the top ranking medical officials have railed against this and the Royal Society has made very strong statements against it. This has at least helped prevent things from getting much worse due to political opposition.
In the US it’s not as public, but some pet projects for funding this nonsense like the “National Institutes For Complimentary and Alternative Medicine” have been snuck into bills. There has also been political pressure for the FTC and FDA to not enforce standard trade law against homeopathic products. By US law you can’t advertise a product as doing something it doesn’t. Deceptive advertising is considered fraud. Also, all health products are supposed to be certified for effectiveness and safety by the FDA. Homeopathic products have managed to get a free pass on both of these requirements.
So I will admit that the governments of the world do indeed sanction or at least approve homeopathic products. This is not proof of anything except for dirty politics and bad policies.
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September 17th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Via The Hindu we get news that the state of Maharashtra is investing money in research into a homeopathic swine flu vaccine of sorts.
A senior city homeopath Dr Sreerang Oak had on Friday advocated a preventive treatment combining two bio-chemic substances of homeopathy — ‘Kali Mur’ and ‘Ferrum Phos’ (with power of 12 X )– which he said could arrest the spread of the H1N1 virus among population.
Wow, they know they can arrest, read stop dead on its tracks, the spread of the swine flu, before the research the money is supposed to be spent on has even been done! That does not augur well for the state of Maharashtra!
Four tablets each of the two medicines, easily and cheaply available with chemists could stop the infection in the first stage, bestowing an immunity on the person against the virus, he claimed.
They even know the exact dosage for goodness sake, before the research is done! Talk about quackery!
From: Skepfeeds-The Best Skeptical blogs of the day
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September 17th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
I just made a post that I’d worked on for a couple of days describing how homeopathy supposedly works.
Anyways, they don’t need to “test” it or evaluate the doses. The theory of homeopathy states that all you need to do is find substances that would produce the same symptoms of the flu. Just find some chemicals that cause fever, fatigue, nausea, headache and so on. That shouldn’t be too difficult to find.
Kali Mur is an antiquated nitch term which means potassium chloride. I think it was used by alchemists, but it’s not recognized by modern chemistry.
Ferrum Phos is Ferric pyrophosphate, also a non-standard and antiquated term, not reconized by IUPAC. Both are considered “Cell Salts” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochemic_cell_salts
Notice that when used in high enough doses, they would tend to cause some of the same things that flu does: http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C258297.html
If you take enough they irritate a number of systems in the body and cause swelling, pain etc
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September 17th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
‘Dr’buzzo what a horrible ’scientist’ you are. You speak without facts. And plz do not comment on India because if I start commenting on true deed of your country, you will die of disgust. And medical system is India is much better than yours. It is available and affordable. Not like some countries where if you cant buy big insurance you cant get treatment. And you have to wait for months for treatment. People from such big countries are coming to India to get quick treatment. One doctor from such country came and told that his father got a date of 4 months for his dental procedure and he came to India and could get it done immediately at 1/10th price. He told us that drs in his hospital meet every morning to discuss how to get maximum out of patients by using costly investigations and procedures. It is much better here in India. Yes poverty is there but it is not a crime and is being taken care of by rapid progress of India. It is better than many criminal activities that are fathered by so called great countries.
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September 18th, 2009 at 12:11 am
Nisha Singh said:
There is one big problem facing India, and it is people like you. As the nation works to improve living standards and develop industries and technology, you and other scam artists continue to take advantage of the unsophisticated and uneducated, drawing them away from legitimate medicine and toward the lies of homeopathy.
India has one of the worst problems with quacks in the world. In the Indian countryside, “God-Men” play simple tricks to sell their magic potions to the hapless sick residents and in the cities, homeopaths prey on the sick, the old and the uneducated.
Nisha Singh said:
You have no idea what you’re talking about. The biggest strength of the American system is that there is no wait. Everyone gets treatment. Go to a hospital with a serious problem and you get treatment. Go with a not so serious problem and you will have to wait hours but you will get treatment.
The only issue that really causes problems for the uninsured is that they are stuck with the bill. But they do not ask you if you can pay before giving treatment for anything critical. Most Americans are insured. For those who are not, they end up stuck with a big bill and may be forced to bankruptcy. You know what that means? It means that for the next few years they’re going to have trouble getting good terms on a car loan. Yeah… seriously.
Nisha Singh said:
I didn’t say there weren’t good doctors and hospitals in India. There certainly are, for those who can afford it and who are not suckered into homeopathic treatment by a quack.
Nisha Singh said:
It is not that your country is criminal. It is that **you** are and so are every other homeopath and self-proclaimed wizard and warlock or psychic healer or whatever other scam it is. Your country is moving forward not because of you but despite you and these quacks are the sand in the gears of progress that slow the process of improvement.
If you care so much about your country, about progress toward the improvement of it, about health and about humanity, please stop defrauding from the society you proclaim to care about.
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September 18th, 2009 at 12:12 am
Nisha, are you just plain stupid? You keep telling us stories that you cannot validate and then have the temerity to call us bad scientists – I honestly don’t believe you know what science is or what a scientist does.
I also know that Indian homeopaths have killed more people than they have helped – it cannot be otherwise because the whole premise of homeopathy is nonsensical and it has never been proven effective at any statistically significant level. If indeed you work in a homeopathic ‘hospital’ you are working in death-house and are a direct accessory to murder by criminal negligence.
You have nothing to say to anyone here with the blood of innocent victims on your hands who came to you for help. You revolt me because you make a living as a parasite on those that cannot defend themselves, you and all those that practice this and similar quackery belong in prison.
When all is said and done you are nothing but a bunch of criminals.
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September 18th, 2009 at 12:27 am
world knows who is criminal, its people like you know try to deprive people of good health options. you are not only disgusting thieves but a blot on human civilization.
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September 18th, 2009 at 1:04 am
If I were a homeopath in India right now, I’d be trying very hard to defend my profession (if you can call it that) and to try to promote homeopathy in political circles and to secure any kind of government support I could. The reason is I think I’d be scared of what was happening.
Think about what it must be like to be a homeopath who has made a living by scheming around false information and exploiting ignorance. You look around you and you see education improving, more Indians going into science and tech fields than ever, more information, improving health care. This is your nightmare! The thing that can kill your scheme is education and real science based medicine. Every scientist that an Indian university produces is one more person to debunk your lies and bring enlightenment to society. Every real doctor is your enemy.
If I were an Indian homeopath, I’d see the changes over the past 10-20 years and I’d wonder what the next 10-20 bring. I’d be very worried and I’d be trying to cling to whatever I could to keep things up.
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September 18th, 2009 at 1:54 am
Michael I do not earn a single penny out of homeopathy and the hospital I work in is a govt run hospital which gives totally free of cost treatment to general public. I am sure about the results because of many reasons – effect on children even newborn (so cant be placebo effect) quickness of effect (remission does not happen in a day where for last several years patient was suffering) improvement in cases where remission is not seen or not possible (reversal of pathologies).
And now facts, no rumbling anecdotes, no beating about the bush.
Homeopathy is fraud – No, it has been shown to be effective by single and double blind clinical studies. Also clinics around the world have millions of successful cases.
Homeopathy is money making business – No, cost of homeopathy is negligible compared to conventional medicine. There is no money in homeopathy. No one will ever join homeopathy for money. It is not money but homeopaths are into it just because of passion to heal the suffering souls.
Homeopaths are quacks – No, homeopaths are equally qualified as other drs like in anatomy, physiology, pathology, medicine, clinical investigation etc It is recognized by government and drs are licensed.
Homeopaths are making people fool – No, homeopaths do not go to peoples houses to force them into homeopathy, its people who choose homeopathy. And contrary to what you are saying homeopathy is more popular in metro cities where awareness and education level of people are higher. It is further growing in big cities that shows its peoples choice. (Mr Ray are you sleeping).
Homeopathy is risky as it deprive people of ‘real treatment’ – No homeopaths are more sincere about peoples health than you. They take full use of investigations and keep overall health status of patient under observation. They also refer patients for surgery in cases surgery can heal the patient faster. When people are so aware that they can understand clinical studies don’t they understand what can help them better in achieving good health. They choose homeopathy as better health option.
Homeopathy is non effective – Compare medicinal treatment of conventional medicine and homeopathy, homeopathy scores higher. More important, homeopathy improves health status so prevents sickness in which conventional medicine fails miserably. And not to talk about huge side effects of conventional medicine which are a big problem.
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September 18th, 2009 at 6:51 am
Nisha, I do not believe that you work for free, so you are making a living from homeopathy.
You have proven nothing – you are just making unsubstantiated assertions that carry absolutely no weight here because they are not backed up with solid evedence.
The Indian government puts up with homeopathy because it cannot provide good health care for its huge population – the day it can this farce is finished there too. Please note that I am not an American, so don’t bother to tell me the short comings of their system, I don’t care.
We will outlast you here, it doesn’t matter how often you try and post this nonsense, one of us will answer, demanding that you back up what you say with facts, and nothing that you have written above is fact.
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September 18th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Everything I wrote was with evidence but you guys are intentionally blind. For sure you will outlast me because you will keep on ignoring facts ans repeatedly speak lie. You said in India homeopathy is alive because of poverty, alas again a lie. Poverty affects more villages where no body knows homeopathy. It is most popular in big metro cities that too in higher middle and higher income group which is highly educated and aware. So it is a choice. And you say India is not able to provide healthcare. Within its resources it is doing wonderful job. There are state run absolutely free hospital including tertiary care. No insurance required. So that why it is available and affordable to poorest. And you say India is not able to provide. In contrast you see those great countries where even well to do are finding it hard to buy insurance and they rush to India to get cheaper and readily available treatment. Infact India is providing healthcare to these great countries. Thats my great country. Homeopathy is alive for more than 250 years and is growing fast as people are becoming more aware and educated. Its peoples choice. In India homeopathic and conventional drs are not enemies as said by another ignorant. They coordinate well, refer to each other even treat each other as the case requires just like in China acupuncture is in mainstream along with conventional medicine. My job is done I have proved beyond doubt that homeopathy works and is effective healthcare option. As far as intentional blind people like you are concerned I dont care, keep rumbling anecdotes.
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September 18th, 2009 at 8:34 am
I end what I started with -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luc_Montagnier#Electromagnetic_signals_from_bacterial_DNA
did that say – agitated dilution in water God how come EMS from that.
remain blind you pseudo scientists.
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September 18th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Nisha Singh said:
Has anyone except Montagier and that other Benveniste-associate replicated these results? Has this been published and peer reviewed and found to be scientifically solid?
Anyone can write an article. I(!) could write and article if I wanted to and in it claim that the moon is made of green cheeze and present data for it. But it means nothing until it has been reviewed and there is consensus it’s accurate and solid.
So… is it?
/Michael
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September 18th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Ray1952 said:
Exactly. The biggest thing that threatens homeopaths is science and education. Ideally they would want a society as backward and ignorant as possible. The universities in India have been improving rapidly in recent years and every well qualified India doctor or scientist is a threat. If I were an Indian homeopath I’d too be very scared of progress.
DV82XL said:
Sadly, I think it will take far more than just good healthcare to put the homeopaths out of buisiness. It will probably help reduce their number and they may make slightly less money, but homeopathy and other quack practices are not gone in Canada, the US, the UK or Australia. All countries with cutting edge medicine. The homeopaths still find enough of a population to sustain themselves.
If you look at the UK, you can see that there has been some success by their lobby in getting laws passed that favor their schemes. In almost all countries they have managed to get politically favorable decisions on their products regulation or lack of regulation.
The homeopaths in India probably are fighting because they see the writing on the wall and they know their best bet could be to get legislation inked that will keep them viable even as people wake up.
Nisha Singh said:
Not poverty but ignorance. The two often go together, but there are also plenty of rich fools in the world who are gullible enough to be suckered into this as well.
Nisha Singh said:
So with the rise of the Indian middle class, India now has created its own class of naive yuppies who will fall for homeopathy, it seems. Welcome to the club.
Nisha Singh said:
First of all, let me be clear that I am not insulting India and I do agree that they are doing what they can with what they have and they are getting better. However, to claim that there are free hospitals in India that provide world-class care for free to anyone who walks in the door is just ridiculous.
I recognize that the system is doing all it can, but lets be honest here. If a hospital in India existed that would provide top quality care for free and had no limits or waiting, the line would be out the door and all the way to China and back.
I respect the Indian doctors who work so hard to try to improve their system, but the homeopaths are the ones who are holding it all back and making the improvements that much difficult.
India is the one country left that still has a very large problem with polio. Polio is something that can be eradicated by vaccination. It should be, but there are quacks out there who are jumping on the anti-vaccine bandwagon and who are claiming homeopathy can treat or prevent polio or any other disease and it’s false.
Nisha Singh said:
No. get your facts right. The whole shame was cooked up in Germany 211 years ago and I very much doubt it took root in India right away, so you’re really looking at less than 200 years. (Yes, I know and understand the history of homeopathy and the ways its been played.)
Nisha Singh said:
If they aren’t they should be. We do have some problems with that in the west too. Too often, doctors and medical institutions tolerate homeopathy because they consider it harmless and it at least pacifies patients who may not have any real problem.
This is a huge mistake. It may seem harmless because it does not kill or injure directly, but tolerating homeopathy is making a deal with the devil. It can and does harm by defrauding people and turning them away from good healthcare.
Nisha Singh said:
China is another country that has a massive problem with medical fraud, quacks and quack medicine. It’s amazing when you consider that the Chinese government is normally very heavy-handed with anyone who they think is committing fraud. In China, there are acupuncturists and homeopaths who get away with this crap, even under one of the most stronghanded governments in the world.
I’ve read some fascinating articles about it. Quack non-science based medicine has managed to get a very tight grip on the Chinese culture and it is so popular that trying to root it all out would create too much of an outcry for even the Chinese to keep down.
One thing I have to hand to quacks is that they do a good job with their PR and their politics. The fact that they can thrive in China is the ultimate proof of that. Things are improving though. As healthcare improves the quacks are feeling the squeeze. Medicine in China is a combination of real science based medicine and quack elixirs, but slowly and surely the scale is tipping.
Nisha Singh said:
These are facts. History, scientific arguments, political conditions etc are all facts. Studies are factual.
Do you know what an anecdote is? An anecdote is “I once saw someone improve after taking homeopathy” or “My cousin swears by it” or “My brother in law has seen hundreds of times it worked”
Quote Comment
October 4th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Nisha Singh said:
Gordon said:
In India, they have marble hospitals that look like 5 star hotels. That only the middle- and upper classes can afford.
I know, because I used them during my stay in India – I lived in Delhi for almost 5 years. They are expensive but terribly good. I have had MIR scans, a broken collar bone treated by an Oxford educated doctor, countless test etc. Fantastic doctors, exceptional treatment and incredible hospitals that look like something out of Xanadu.
Gordon said:
Correct. The public hospitals are an absolute disgrace. Visit at night, and you will see droves of patients lying outside waiting to get in.
Nisha Singh is either delusional or dishonest. Or, as I suspect, both.
Quote Comment
October 6th, 2009 at 4:31 am
seborgarsen said:
I don’t doubt that there are fantastic hospitals in India. The country has been a place for medical tourism. I also don’t doubt that there are some rich Indians who will buy homeopathic products and still take advantage of the excellent medical facilities in the country. (think of the US where there are rich celebs who will go to the best plastic surgeons in the world but also sleep with an energy crystal next to their bed)
But you can look at any industrial country that has good healthcare and you’ll see that this alone doesn’t kill off quackery.
As far as homeopathy goes: it doesn’t help the system at any level.
Quote Comment
July 10th, 2010 at 7:38 am
ULTRADILUTIONS of Belladona effective ???? against viral encephalitis. they must be kidding. how is that possible.
http://www.scipub.org/fulltext/ajid/ajid6224-28.pdf
Quote Comment
July 10th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
…
Do the crazies like to come in waves or something?
All we need is Bruce and McGlashan to show up again and we’d really be able to get the party started.
Quote Comment
July 13th, 2010 at 1:46 am
Soon all those talking loud against homeopathy will be seen running for cover. Or may be in homeopathy clinic looking for ultradiluted medicines to correct their mental imbalance.
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July 13th, 2010 at 1:57 am
Nisha Singh said:
Soon there won’t be any homeopaths left to go to. The noose is tightening, and you all know it. Good riddance.
If I had my way all of you quacks would be rounded up to spend the rest of your lives in community service for your crimes – cleaning the toilets in real hospitals as prisoners of the state.
Quote Comment
July 13th, 2010 at 6:45 am
There you are. You can post only crap. Its good that world including scientists have realized the benefits of homeopathy in treating sickness and serving mankind. And you criminals of humanity belong to cleaning toilets in prisons serving as prisoners.
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July 13th, 2010 at 8:06 am
Nisha Singh said:
What in the world are you talking about, Nisha? The overwhelming trend at the moment is in favour of scientific medicine and against homeopathy and other baseless quack practices. The public reaction against the anti-vaxers here in Australia is just a prominent example of a wider recognition in the general community and legislative bodies of the immense damage people such as yourself have caused, of the misery and suffering you have callously inflicted on ignorant or desperate people. The noose is tightening. Frightening, isn’t it.
Quote Comment
July 13th, 2010 at 8:22 am
are you in a dream, its time to wake up to reality. homeopathy is growing with more acceptance even in real science.
Quote Comment
July 13th, 2010 at 8:51 am
Nisha Singh said:
“even in real science” Bit of a Freudian slip there Nisha?
Anyway the only one dreaming here is you; current events show that homeopathy is being pushed out in more places every day. And there is no body of legitimate science that supports this BS, no mater how often jackasses like you assert it.
Quote Comment
July 13th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Nisha Singh said:
I didn’t even get past the first paragraph of that article before experiencing a very severe eye roll. Any
“study” that starts out with such blatant appeals to politics and various conspiracy theories should be rejected from scientific publications simply based on the fact that it injects extraneous issues into the content.
that said, the quality of the publication only gets worse from there.
It seems to me that this “American Journal of Infectious Diseases” is nothing more than another attempt to get credibility for a legitimate-sounding internet based publication that is by no means a real scientific journal.
The actual Journal it may be trying to sound like is The Journal of Infectious Disease, which is American, but does not have “American” in the title and making Disease plural. The other major respected publications on the topic in the US would be “Clinical Infectious Diseases Journal.”
This kind of inventing of a dubious journal with an apparently very authoritative title is nothing new. I’ve seen it too many times to count. However, in this case, the title is so close, adding only the title “American” to the title of another publication that can be legitimately called the same thing, I think this may be grounds for some kind of legal action to stop this. I’m not entirely sure, but I’m thinking that perhaps I should send an email to the Infectious Diseases Society of America, who publishes the “Journal of Infectious Disease” and alert them to this misuse of their good name. Perhaps there is something they can do about it.
Quote Comment
July 14th, 2010 at 1:56 am
Nisha Singh said:
Nisha Singh said:
This is not an issue of dogma or society and certainly is not one where scientists are jumping to homeopathy.
I have but one objection to homeopathic treatments; they do not work!
Selling them is fraud. However, the only way to stop it is to get the word out. People who are honest and care about having accurate medical info are working to get the message out and show the population what homeopathy is all about. They are doing a good job and people are learning. For the homeopaths, this is the ultimate nightmare!
Quote Comment
July 14th, 2010 at 2:21 am
I feel sorry for your science teacher. You don’t know ABC of science. You guys are good only in writing crap. Oh yes you are paid for this.
Quote Comment
July 14th, 2010 at 3:11 am
Nisha Singh said:
Pathetic
Quote Comment
July 15th, 2010 at 8:59 am
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Quote Comment
July 15th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Close your eyes tight. Do not dare to see evidence.
Quote Comment
July 15th, 2010 at 9:30 am
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/nobel-laureate-gives-homeopathy-a-boost/story-e6frg8y6-1225887772305
Quote Comment
July 15th, 2010 at 9:32 am
Stop spamming.
Quote Comment
July 15th, 2010 at 9:35 am
Cristal Sumner, of the British Homeopathic Association, said Montagnier’s work gave homeopathy “a true scientific ethos”.
Cristal Sumner… Isn’t she also a porn star? Great porn name in any case!
Quote Comment
July 15th, 2010 at 9:36 am
Nisha Singh said:
Open your eyes… the evidence you think you see, is a fantasy… a dream of yours.
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July 15th, 2010 at 9:37 am
Nisha Singh said:
By now you must realize that nobody here gives a damn about ‘evidence’ supporting homeopathy, in homeopathic journals. You can site all the proof from those sources you want and they will all be dismissed for the rubbish that they are.
However the more interesting question is why do you bother to make these arguments on the back pages of a sceptic’s forum? Do you honestly think that those of us that still follow this thread will be convinced? The lead article reports that the World Health Organization has rejected homeopathy, is any argument you present here, to hard bitten sceptics going to change that? What do you expect to gain here? The more you post, the deeper we hold you in contempt. I can’t see the possibility of a win here for you any time soon.
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July 15th, 2010 at 9:46 am
DV82XL said:
Maybe he it trying to play this game? His problem is of course that he’s really lousy at it.
Personaly I think he’s just venting frustration of getting his faith doubted. Believers tend to have strong allergies against doubt, especially when the doubt is heavilly laced with scientific evidence.
/M
P.S: If you havn’t watched the rest of the movie “Thank You For Smoking”, do it. Absolutely brilliant.
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July 16th, 2010 at 12:40 am
I told you, its not that you cant see benefits of homeopathy but you are paid to write against. So you will deny everything that supports homeopathy. It was not lack of homeopathy all these years, it was lack of scientific development that working of homeopathy could not be proved. With better technology homeopathy is getting proved. And it is proved that you are paid insane criminal working against interest of humanity. But you cant kill truth just like you could not kill Jesus.
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July 16th, 2010 at 12:55 am
Nisha Singh said:
I get no money to write against homeopathy however if someone is interested in paying me to do so I would be pleased if you would drop me a note in comments on my page. You can get there by clicking my name above. My rates for short prose and essays are reasonable and accommodation can be made if you are offering regular work.
Obviously from the number of times I have been accused of being a paid shill in this subject and several other related topics, it can be plainly seen that my work is of commercial quality and is consistently of high standards. I look forward to hearing from prospective clients.
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July 16th, 2010 at 10:48 am
Nisha Singh said:
*sigh*
Not this **** again. No, I am not paid by anyone to write anything on this site. I’m sure that there’s no way I can prove that to the satisfaction of a committed enough nutball.
Nisha Singh said:
Well, first I’m not a Christian, but as far as proving homeopathy goes, I’ll point out a couple of things. The theory and rules behind how homeopathy supposedly works is patently absurd and only a few thought experiments are required to show that it has some insurmountable paradoxes.
However, that having been said, science does not require that you know *how* something works in order to know that it does work.
I can give an example. Lithium salts are the current standard for treatment of bipolar. For decades they have been shown safe and effective in stabilizing mood and having some anti-psychotic properties. We know this is the case thanks to volumes of high quality studies. However, we’re not entirely sure why the work or how the mechanism of action works. In the early years, it’s fair to say we had no idea why lithium salts worked so well. Today, we have some pretty good hypothesizes, but we’re still not entirely certain which mechanism of action is the important one.
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