I consider rational defences of these things to be qualitatively different from the arguments of committed idiots. Idiots get us to check our numbers while rational arguments can get us looking at special cases, alternatives, etc.

        Stephen said:

Sorry, I hadn’t realized it had stopped. I think I recall some vaccination in school, but as you can imagine I wasn’t aware of all the safety precautions. Are similar precautions taken throughout the developed world (where doctors, schools, and medicine are available)?

Yes. That is why deaths from vaccination related causes are rare despite the position of the antivaccination groups. I have yet to see any reliable sources for the figures they quote (like 7.8 deaths per 1000 for MMR vaccine) and of course they claim it is because the truth is suppressed. This, of course begs the question of where they are getting these numbers from, and why they should be regarded as anything other than outright fabrication. Almost eight deaths per thousand, isn’t a small number, that it cannot be verified by any legitimate secondary evidence is telling.

Suit yourself, but we generally have enough committed idiots defending these things show up, that we don’t really need a devil’s advocate from the ranks of the rational.

It was always based on conjecture. I just figured it would be best to have all bases covered. Also, just so there is no misunderstanding, I intend to play “Quack’s Advocate” here in the future for the same purpose. I have an interesting argument set up in favour of maintaining some “organic” food-production, for the next time the topic arises.

        Stephen said:

The anti-vaccers are dead wrong in their demands but I’m still pretty worried about the administration of mass-vaccinations, particularly in schools where there may be nobody present who is familiar with the patient’s medical background. I realize mass vaccinations are necessary to prevent epidemics, and even just for the patients themselves. However, in schools, I don’t know of a single case where the school asked parents about the students’ medical backgrounds and I fear many schools would ignore information volunteered by parents (or get it lost in the bureaucracy). Does anyone have any ideas on how to protect the small minorities where a vaccine is contraindicated without permitting epidemics to arise? Does anyone know of a system in place that would render my fear unfounded?

First, mass vaccinations in the schools are a thing of the past in Canada. I come from an age when they where practised, and indeed at that time, there were forms that went home with the student, with medical questionnaires, and a place for the parent to sign giving permission. These forms also gave instructions of what to look for in the case of a delayed reaction

Also these shots were administered by special squads that consisted of several RNs and at least one MD. Kids had to sit along the hall for 20 min after they were injected to watch for any reactions before going back to class.

Now vaccinations are done in external clinics, or by the family doctor, and in both cases a parent must accompany a minor, so I’m not sure where you get the idea anyone is at risk due to ignorance.

Furthermore, until you can present evidence from that time when mass vaccinations were done in the schools, showing the number of kids harmed, your entire hypothesis is based on conjecture.

I guess I did word my previous point very unclearly. Sorry about that. The anti-vaccers are dead wrong in their demands but I’m still pretty worried about the administration of mass-vaccinations, particularly in schools where there may be nobody present who is familiar with the patient’s medical background. I realize mass vaccinations are necessary to prevent epidemics, and even just for the patients themselves. However, in schools, I don’t know of a single case where the school asked parents about the students’ medical backgrounds and I fear many schools would ignore information volunteered by parents (or get it lost in the bureaucracy). Does anyone have any ideas on how to protect the small minorities where a vaccine is contraindicated without permitting epidemics to arise? Does anyone know of a system in place that would render my fear unfounded?

        NOT SAYIN! said:

I AM A FULL BLOODED CANADIAN

Claiming First Nation status are we? Why do you remind me of that stupid little troll from Montreal North that was vomiting bile all over this site a few months ago?

        NOT SAYIN! said:

DONT YOU CALL ME AN AMERICAN OR ILL COME AND KICK YOUR ASS LIKE YOU DESERVE!

I AM A FULL BLOODED CANADIAN AND I AM NOT GOING TO EVER BE USING VACCINES OR POISON ON MYSELF OR ANYONE ELSE!

ITS **** IN YOUR BODY AND YOU LIKE **** SO MUCH WHY DONT YOU GO EAT MORE TURDS

So you deny that you are Meryl Dorey? very well.

If you’re Canadian, why are you stepping up to comment on an Australian issue, seeing that you’re so opposed to non-Australians doing it?

By the way, I admire your use of allcaps in online communication. You have wisely realised that allcaps use is always interpreted as a sign of wisdom and maturity. Long may you continue in this vein.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘kicking my ass like I deserve’. Can you please demonstrate this, so we can clear up the confusion over this issue?

It does not matter though. Trying to make this into some kind of nationalism argument is totally a strawman. The AVN is wrong regardless of what country they are located in and all promoters of science and medicine should consider them a fair target. It sounds like the Australian Skeptics are doing a good job. The AVN is on the defensive because they know they’re in deep ****.

        NOT SAYIN! said:

DONT YOU CALL ME AN AMERICAN OR ILL COME AND KICK YOUR ASS LIKE YOU DESERVE!

I AM A FULL BLOODED CANADIAN AND I AM NOT GOING TO EVER BE USING VACCINES OR POISON ON MYSELF OR ANYONE ELSE!

ITS **** IN YOUR BODY AND YOU LIKE **** SO MUCH WHY DONT YOU GO EAT MORE TURDS

No such thing as a full-blooded Canadian. We’re all a bunch of mongrels, and I’m now somewhat ashamed of our education system as you don’t seem to know that.

Dumbass.