Those Sinister, Big-Pharma Supporting, Lying Skeptics…
July 19th, 2010
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Health Fascism in Australia.
The sinister Skeptics group, agents of what used to be CSICOP now the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI) organised from the US and linked to the major corporate lobby groups, American Council on Science and Health (ACSH) and American Council Against Health Fraud (ACAHF), which is in turn linked to the Australian CAHF) are making ground in Australia. Supported by authoritarian ideological influences in government and Big Pharma, the Skeptics are running constant attacks on homeopathy, natural cancer treatments, those who question vaccination and those who support any form of alternative medicine.
With the present world fiscal crisis, all those linked to Big Pharma and Science are fighting a bitter battle to preserve drug company competitiveness. But where fascist influences in government and health with most force come together is in attacking anyone who speaks out about freedom of choice and expression in relation to vaccination.
Over the last year the international corporate lobby Skeptics, have been behind a campaign against the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN). In 2009, one of their trolls, a lay person with no standing in medicine or government complained about the web site of the AVN to the office of the State Government funded Health Care Complaints commission (HCCC) an organisation that accepts complaints against groups found be giving out false information about health.
The remit of the HCCC, did not actually cover parent groups which discussed the pros and cons of vaccination, so the State government slightly changed the remit to satisfy the Skeptics. The government then proceeded with a year long investigation into Meryl Dorey the woman who established and runs the AVN and the AVN itself.
Dorey was asked to answer their first 30 odd page report against her and the organisation, within a few weeks. She did this with a magnificent document that argued every point with brilliance. The complaint investigation actually argued against almost every sentence that had appeared on the AVN web site. If the AVN had said that vaccines contained toxic elements, such as mecury and aluminuim the HCCC argued with pseudo science that this was not true, giving pages of bogus evidence to support the vaccine manufacturers.
Oh how very sinister!
One small correction involving the post is that those who have done such good work exposing and shaming the AVN are not actually connected with the Committee For Skeptical Inquiry. As CSI stated on their Facebook page, ” Sorry, but we can’t take any of the credit for the good work being done by the Skeptics in Australia.” Of course, there’s a lot of cross-membership in skeptical organizations and CSI certainly is a general friend and supporter of the work done by the Australian Skeptics, even if they don’t get the credit for specifically helping out in this circumstance.
As for the Australian Skeptics themselves, I’ve met most of the leaders of the group and, well, they didn’t seem that sinister. Richard Saunders is one of the best known faces of skepticism in Australia. He was the president of the organization for some time and i currently the vice president. He also brought a lot of Timtams to TAM last week and was nice enough to share them with everyone. That… sure didn’t seem so sinister. Another well known Australian Skeptic, who was at TAM is Dr. Rachael Dunlop. In addition to being a real doctor, Dr. Dunlop didn’t seem even the slightest bit sinister, although she did have plenty to say about the AVN.
It’s quite amazing that a movement which is generally run by lay persons and has a playboy playmate as its single most public figure would be so critical of lay persons being involved in activism. Like many skeptic organizations, the Australian Skeptics have members in a broad range of fields. Some are fully qualified medical doctors, while others are educators, research scientists or just lay people who have an interest in promoting science and skepticism. If you are looking for medical information from writers who are both doctors and skeptics, check out science based medicine.
When it comes to evaluating medical claims and determining what measures a person should take to maintain good health, medical doctors are the people who have the expertise necessary. Medical advice should always come from a qualified doctor and I doubt anyone in the skeptic movement would dispute that. Yet when taking on the liars of a group like the AVN, we cannot expect the medical community to stand alone in defense of good science and medicine. Groups like the AVN must be countered in the media, the classroom and in local communities.
Above all else, it should be remembered that when people believe the lies of the AVN, people suffer the effects of preventable illness and some die. That makes this issue not only a medical one, but also an ethical one. The suffering of a fellow human being due to the lies told by a group like the AVN is everyone’s business, doctor or not.
Groups like the Health Care Complaints Commission in Australia and other similar regulatory agencies around the world exist to protect citizens from fraud and harm caused by unscrupulous or unqualified parties in the medical field. All citizens have the right to alert their local authorities when they have good reason to believe that standards are being violated or patients are being harmed.
In the end, I’m left to asking where the “fascism” is that they seem to insist the skeptics are all gunning for. As a big supporter of the efforts against the AVN myself, I would like to make it clear that I have never stated that I want medical decisions to be taken away from individuals or for treatments to be forced on anyone. What most in the skeptic movement want more than anything else is for people in general to make the correct decisions based on real scientific evidence. That is why we go after groups like the AVN. The goal is to expose these groups for what they are, to counter their lies with solid science and to let their reputation take the beating it so deserves. As these groups paint themselves as crusaders for good health, we must show that this is a lie.
The AVN’s ability to cause harm exists only as long as there are people who are ignorant enough of the facts and of the AVN’s reputation to be suckered in. Seeing their carefully cultivated image of honesty and benign concern for the health of children being destroyed is what scares the AVN and groups like it more than anything else.
This entry was posted on Monday, July 19th, 2010 at 4:36 pm and is filed under Amazing Meeting, Announcements, Bad Science, Culture, Quackery. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
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July 19th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
The temerity of this person, actually going to the government of all places to redress a serious threat to public health by disinformation by an NGO. What next, the the courts? The arrogance of some people.
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July 19th, 2010 at 9:45 pm
The complaint which was filed with the Health Care Complaint Commission was entirely proper. The HCCC is open to reports from any person professional or otherwise who has a complaint or grievance with a medical provider in Australia. It is intended to provide a place where lay people can report any complaints they have a place to resolve disputes.
When they say “The remit of the HCCC, did not actually cover parent groups which discussed the pros and cons of vaccination, so the State government slightly changed the remit to satisfy the Skeptics.”
That is just not true. The AVN has made claims that are not true about its own renunciations and has been holding anti-vaccine seminars, some of which require paid admission and has been dispensing medical advice both in genera and directed toward individuals.
They have been investigated because their activities may be crossing the line of legality. In Australia you can’t go around providing medical consultation services when you’re not in any way licensed or accredited to do so.
Also, they have registered as a charity and a political group and there are questions about the accuracy of some of the documents they have filed, as is required by the government. They have made claims about their finances and membership which do not add up.
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July 19th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
“Funded by big pharma”
Still irritates me as much as the first time I heard that stupid ****. Of course anyone who is not in full agreement when then is funded by big pharma/big nuclear/big banking or whoever else they care to insert.
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July 20th, 2010 at 12:01 am
Reading the comments on “Age Of Autism” on this entry nearly brought a tear to my eye. How can there be so many people so very wrong and so incapable of accepting the clear truth? Not a single comment to even question whether the AVN is just not doing the right thing. Nobody even questioned the more outlandish claims of a conspiracy funded by the big pharma companies.
I wonder if I should comment but I am sure I would do nothing to help with such a huge audience of committed anti-vaccine pilgrims.
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July 20th, 2010 at 3:01 am
My favourite quote from the A of A article:
I’ll admit that a “key plank of public health strategy” smacks a bit of too much management, not enough competency, but it still makes sense – just replace “plank” with “part” and move on. The rest of it is pretty plain English if you’ve got, well, any concept of how science works.
(That’s “science” in the sense of the industry / activity rather than any actual scientific knowledge, for anyone who remains confused by how double-plus-ungood my English is)
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July 20th, 2010 at 4:40 am
Magic Donuts said:
That wouldn’t have done any good. AoA censors their comments to prevent disenting views from appearing. You can see comments others have tried to post at AOA here:
http://silencedbyageofautism.blogspot.com/
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July 20th, 2010 at 7:59 am
Good post. The concrete denial of reality engaged in by these organisations is mind-boggling.
I have one minor (?) quibble though, where you write: “…for people in general to make the correct decisions based on real scientific evidence.” As a doctor I have some fairly strong ideas about what are the best or most “correct” decisions my patients could make, but my goal in giving them information and the opportunity to ask questions and challenge is not for them to necessarily make the same decision I would make. Rather than “make the correct decisions”, I want them to make their own decisions based on rational thought and real information.
While I can hope that they will make what I consider to be the right decision, and wouldn’t be a part of a management plan using ineffective treatment modalities, it’s actually not up to me – nor do I want it to be.
Which seems to be too much to ask, a lot of the time
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July 20th, 2010 at 10:42 am
Magic Donuts said:
It’s generally not worth commenting at AoA. The reason you saw no negative comments was because they delete such comments, and eventually ban the people who say them. Visit http://silencedbyageofautism.blogspot.com/ if you want to read some of the deleted comments; Todd W runs the site as a place to crosspost any AoA posts so they survive the inevitable moderator axe.
Of course, when AoA fans visit *other* sites, such as Respectful Insolence, they are quick to claim unfair treatment, though Orac almost never deletes posts while AoA does so routinely.
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July 20th, 2010 at 11:15 am
tsuken said:
I get what you’re saying. It’s often not a simple right/wrong issue and it’s a subjective decision the patient must come to based on the pros and cons and good advice. However, I’d have a hard time ever considering forgoing vaccines on the grounds that they don’t work and cause autism to be “correct” in any sense of the word at all.
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July 20th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Magic Donuts: Others have pointed out why there are no dissenting comments at AoA. For the other part of your question, we’re dealing with a cognitive dissonance phenomenon. The article authors and the commenters who get through are generally people who have a large emotional, financial and time investment in believing that vaccines injured their children and that the snake oil they’re using is “recovering” their children. Any evidence that autism isn’t vaccine injury means that a) they’ve been spectacularly wrong about a matter involving the health of their own flesh and blood b) they’ve been duped into wasting enormous amounts of time and money and c) it’s quite possible that their own genetics contributed to their kids’ autism (that they could view themselves as “to blame” for that, given that your genetics are the one aspect of your personhood that you have the least control over, is a testament to the lasting influence of the eugenics movement).
The first one is especially important because there’s probably a little voice in the back of their heads saying that conducting uncontrolled medical experiments on their kids is wrong, and so is regarding their kids (and conveying this attitude to them) as “broken” or “unworthy.” Denying this is a way to avoid guilt. There’s also the fact, established by research, that when it comes to emotionally significant decisions (and decisions about your kids’ health are as emotionally significant as you can get), people evaluate advice more based on the perceived likability of the advice giver than on his/her perceived expertise. Thus, when terrorists fly planes into skyscrapers, most people want the kind of President you could have a beer or twelve with, not some pointy-headed intellectual. This phenomenon could quite fairly be called “Jenny McCarthyism”.
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July 20th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
ebohlman said:
There is more than a shred of truth in what you say, but there also is an element of believing that if you believe enough, it will be true. This is at the root of those that insist that praying will cure their children, in the face of evedence that it is not, then justifying it with the belief that it was a test of faith.
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July 20th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
WTF Do you care about this? It says right on your page you are an AMERICAN and this is the AUSTRALIAN vaccine network which is being attacked by AUSTRALIAN skeptics. Why does this one small organization have to put up with ****in attacks from everywhere even the other side of the world? It’s none of your ****in business so SHUT THE **** UP
The only thing you have riding here is the fact that all your American drug and chemical companies are the ones who make money all over the world selling their ****. Why don’t you go blow up iraq again to show how great you are? **** YOU! LEAVE THE AUSTRIANS ALONE BECAUSE THEY HAVE ENOUGH **** COMING FROM THE AUSTRALIAN SKEPTICS AND AUSTRALIA DRUG DEALING COMPANIES AS IT IS NOW
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July 20th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
We really need more Skeptics and Science in Australia..really..we do
Although if the Liberal party get into power, the Pontifs best Aussie mate will try to make sure that doesn’t happen.
BTW Meryl Dorey is an American, but to be fair we gave you Barry Williams.
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July 20th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Not Sayin! said:
Because they are a bunch of sociopaths who want to get children killed and because modern air travel means that if they stop infectious disease prevention, even we Canucks can get hit by it.
Gotta love your eloquence. Shakespeare move over.
What do the Central Europeans have to do with anything?
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July 20th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Not Sayin! said:
This evil organisation which you are so eager to defend is almost certainly responsible for the deaths of many Australian infants through their idiotic antivax propaganda. They deserve nothing but to be attacked by anyone who becomes aware of their existence, be those people Australian, American or whatever.
Meryl Dorey deserves to rot in gaol for the vicious lies she has spread, destroying the health, and in some cases the life, of children in Australia, and possibly elsewhere as well.
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July 20th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
Not Sayin! said:
This is not a uniquely Australian problem. It’s an international problem. We have plenty of anti-vaxers in the US ourselves and then you have the British Wakefield followers as well as idiots across the globe.
The AVN is just one group causing harm. They are Australian, but their message is part of an international movement that has caused untold harm in the US, in Australia and elsewhere.
I have said before that I applaud the efforts of the Australian Skeptics and continue to support my friends in Australia who have fought the good fight. I also hope they can be an inspiration to others around the globe. Many good Australians deserve a lot of credit for the work they’ve done to oppose and expose the AVN.
Finrod said:
I agree. The issue transcends borders.
And by the way, let me point out that it cuts both ways. If any Australians (or anyone else) wants to help fight the American anti-vaxers, I’d welcome them to do so. Especially in this age of global media and connectivity, the battle lines do not follow national borders.
Oh, and Dorey is an American anyway.
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July 21st, 2010 at 12:12 am
I realize this is a little off-topic, but this is the best spot I have seen to raise this point:
The anti-vaccine groups are stupid, but in some cases they may be right. I know that for more than a few diseases the immune system’s response is what causes the dangerous or even deadly symptoms. I also understand that when training the immune system with a vaccine, a weak response of the sort which corresponds to the disease is triggered. What about people with screwed up immune-systems? If someone has a serious chance of a dangerous fever rising before the white blood-cells can adapt to the vaccine’s antigens, should he (or she) avoid vaccines? If they should, then what about mass-vaccination for infectious disease where herd-immunity is an issue?
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July 21st, 2010 at 12:43 am
Stephen said:
That’s not a good way of putting it. Indeed in some special cases, some vaccinations, may be contra-indicated, for some patients. However, in general, these cases are rare, like a kid fighting childhood leukaemia, and therefore they cannot serve a a general rule. If a high-risk condition is not present, then the risks from being vaccinated, are several orders of magnitude lower than the risk of remaining unvaccinated.
The argument that people are being subjected to an unknown hazard by mass vaccination programs, fails to take into account the balance of risk, in particular because those with pre-existing conditions that place them at a higher risk, generaly know that they should avoid taking shots. For those that might be vulnerable, and not be aware, it is still a good chance to take, because the possibility of surviving an episode with an attenuated pathogen is better than if the more virulent one had be contracted ‘naturally.’ In other words, in the case of something like pertussis, the likelihood that you would die outright from the wild virus would be very, very high if indeed you had a reaction to the weakened one, so you still would be better off being immunised.
As usual, there will always be isolated examples of someone drawing the short straw, but to contend that the world would be better off if vaccinations were halted because of this, is just demonstrably wrong, and shows no grasp of the concept of risk.
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July 21st, 2010 at 5:39 am
Not exactly on topic but in the same vein. There is currently a big surge in cases of whooping cough in California. I posted a link to one story but a quick search will find many more.
Now I will preface this comment with the fact that I am not blaming any group, but it is thought that one issue causing the increase could be the large numbers of illegals who aren’t vaccinated. Again I am not saying anything about illegals being responsible or that this is a reason to send them all home, but because of their background they have not had access to vaccination and are probably afraid to get vaccinated when they arrive in the US.
It is a ‘field experiment’ in herd immunity. If a large enough percentage is not vaccinated you get epidemics.
“Whooping Cough Epidemic Rages in California: 5 Babies Dead, 910 Infected”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20008713-10391704.html
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July 21st, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Stephen said:
No, they are NOT RIGHT.
There are some, very small subset of the population who should receive certain vaccines because of preexisting conditions that could interfere with them. This is not at all the same as claiming they’re not generally safe and effective.
The CDC has a website that lists the individuals who should not receive certain vaccines: http://198.246.98.21/vaccines/vpd-vac/should-not-vacc.htm
There are others for whom it is safe to get the vaccine, but who are less likely to develop a full immunity from it. These are generally those with compromised immune systems. In many circumstances, it’s perfectly safe to get the vaccine, but it won’t work very well (or at all) when it comes to producing a good immune response.
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July 21st, 2010 at 2:33 pm
You are all so full of ****. I AM SURE NONE OF YOU ARE EVEN AUSTRALIAN AND PROBABLY ALL WORK FOR DRUG COMPANIES
SHOTS NEVER CURED ANYTHING! I GOT A ****ING TETNUS SHOT LAST YEAR AND IT ****IN MADE ME SORE AND **** FOR A WEEK BECAUSE OF THE **** TOXINS IJECTED INTO ME. MY STUPID MOM MADE ME AND I WOULD NEVER JET SHOT UP WITH POISON AGAIN AND MAKE ME ALL SORE AND SICK NOT WELL
VAX MAKES YOU SICK
MATHEW SAID
“What do the Central Europeans have to do with anything?”
I MEAN AUSTRALIA AND I JUST MADE A TYPE O! ANY IDIOT SOULD SE THAT! N YOU ARE JUST A ****IN TURD EATER. GO EAT SOME MORE TURDS!
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July 21st, 2010 at 2:38 pm
So how’s the seventh grade going, “Not Sayin”?
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July 21st, 2010 at 3:08 pm
STILL NOT SAYIN said:
Of course it made you sore – you got a piece of metal jabbed into a muscle and fluid pushed through it. I’d be shocked if you *weren’t* sore.
-shrug-
Works for me. You’ll be dead, and I won’t have to listen to your idiocy.
So was that a type O + or type O -?
It’s not my fault you can’t spell.
Dumbass.
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July 21st, 2010 at 5:51 pm
STILL NOT SAYIN said:
Well I don’t work for a drug company. I’m not an Australian, but the commenter “Finrod” is, and there may be others from Australia commenting here. I don’t honestly know.
Not that it even matters, because as I pointed out, the majority of the effort against the AVN is entirely indigenous to Australia. In fact, I want to go out of my way to make it clear that we Americans can claim very little credit in the effort and we have to give proper citation to our Australian Skeptic friends. They’re the ones who really deserve the attention here for their excellent work.
Also, the money involved here is not really “big money” because the organization is supported on a grass roots level by members who primarily have unrelated day jobs and contribute because they want to do the right thing. The one exception for “big money” would be the generous donations made by Dick Smith, who is not in any way related to drug companies and who has a company with the motto “As Australian as it Gets” – Dick Smith himself, of course, being a very proud native Australian.
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July 21st, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Doc, why are you giving this, STILL NOT SAYIN, the status of acknowledging his existence? He is obviously just some kid who’s arse craves a thorough licking with a belt. He doesn’t even have the saving grace of being crazy; he is just a lippy little peckerwood.
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July 21st, 2010 at 7:08 pm
DV82XL said:
But he’s just so *cute* when he goes spastic
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July 21st, 2010 at 7:10 pm
>Doc, why are you giving this, STILL NOT SAYIN, the status of acknowledging his existence?
>He is obviously just some kid who’s arse craves a thorough licking with a belt.
>He doesn’t even have the saving grace of being crazy;
>he is just a lippy little peckerwood.
…and probably not even Australian himself.
> MY STUPID MOM MADE ME AND I WOULD NEVER JET SHOT UP WITH POISON AGAIN
An australian would say Mum.
TC (also from Oz)
P.S. I live in the Northern Rivers region of NSW and we’re currently suffering a Petussis epidemic here partly due to the efforts of the AVN. It’s not pretty.
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July 21st, 2010 at 8:08 pm
TC Forest said:
Quite right. Using “Mom” as the spelling for that word is an American trait. Australia and as far as I know, the rest of the English-speaking Commonwealth nations, use “Mum”.
Are these comments coming from Australia? Who do we know in Australia who supports the AVN anti-vax agenda has a US origin, and therefore might give themselves away in this manner? Anyone come to mind?
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July 21st, 2010 at 9:15 pm
DONT YOU CALL ME AN AMERICAN OR ILL COME AND KICK YOUR ASS LIKE YOU DESERVE! I AM A FULL BLOODED CANADIAN AND I AM NOT GOING TO EVER BE USING VACCINES OR POISON ON MYSELF OR ANYONE ELSE! ITS **** IN YOUR BODY AND YOU LIKE **** SO MUCH WHY DONT YOU GO EAT MORE TURDS
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July 21st, 2010 at 9:31 pm
NOT SAYIN! said:
No such thing as a full-blooded Canadian. We’re all a bunch of mongrels, and I’m now somewhat ashamed of our education system as you don’t seem to know that.
Dumbass.
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July 21st, 2010 at 9:49 pm
Uh.. I am pretty sure a few of the regular commenter are from Canada
It does not matter though. Trying to make this into some kind of nationalism argument is totally a strawman. The AVN is wrong regardless of what country they are located in and all promoters of science and medicine should consider them a fair target. It sounds like the Australian Skeptics are doing a good job. The AVN is on the defensive because they know they’re in deep ****.
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July 21st, 2010 at 9:50 pm
NOT SAYIN! said:
So you deny that you are Meryl Dorey? very well.
If you’re Canadian, why are you stepping up to comment on an Australian issue, seeing that you’re so opposed to non-Australians doing it?
By the way, I admire your use of allcaps in online communication. You have wisely realised that allcaps use is always interpreted as a sign of wisdom and maturity. Long may you continue in this vein.
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘kicking my ass like I deserve’. Can you please demonstrate this, so we can clear up the confusion over this issue?
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July 21st, 2010 at 10:25 pm
NOT SAYIN! said:
Claiming First Nation status are we? Why do you remind me of that stupid little troll from Montreal North that was vomiting bile all over this site a few months ago?
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July 22nd, 2010 at 10:43 am
Mat, this guy’s ignorance isn’t enough to make me any more ashamed of the Canadian public education-system than I already was and as much as we can complain, we went to (relatively) really good schools.
I guess I did word my previous point very unclearly. Sorry about that. The anti-vaccers are dead wrong in their demands but I’m still pretty worried about the administration of mass-vaccinations, particularly in schools where there may be nobody present who is familiar with the patient’s medical background. I realize mass vaccinations are necessary to prevent epidemics, and even just for the patients themselves. However, in schools, I don’t know of a single case where the school asked parents about the students’ medical backgrounds and I fear many schools would ignore information volunteered by parents (or get it lost in the bureaucracy). Does anyone have any ideas on how to protect the small minorities where a vaccine is contraindicated without permitting epidemics to arise? Does anyone know of a system in place that would render my fear unfounded?
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July 22nd, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Stephen said:
First, mass vaccinations in the schools are a thing of the past in Canada. I come from an age when they where practised, and indeed at that time, there were forms that went home with the student, with medical questionnaires, and a place for the parent to sign giving permission. These forms also gave instructions of what to look for in the case of a delayed reaction
Also these shots were administered by special squads that consisted of several RNs and at least one MD. Kids had to sit along the hall for 20 min after they were injected to watch for any reactions before going back to class.
Now vaccinations are done in external clinics, or by the family doctor, and in both cases a parent must accompany a minor, so I’m not sure where you get the idea anyone is at risk due to ignorance.
Furthermore, until you can present evidence from that time when mass vaccinations were done in the schools, showing the number of kids harmed, your entire hypothesis is based on conjecture.
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July 23rd, 2010 at 12:23 am
Sorry, I hadn’t realized it had stopped. I think I recall some vaccination in school, but as you can imagine I wasn’t aware of all the safety precautions. Are similar precautions taken throughout the developed world (where doctors, schools, and medicine are available)?
It was always based on conjecture. I just figured it would be best to have all bases covered. Also, just so there is no misunderstanding, I intend to play “Quack’s Advocate” here in the future for the same purpose. I have an interesting argument set up in favour of maintaining some “organic” food-production, for the next time the topic arises.
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July 23rd, 2010 at 12:42 am
Stephen said:
Yes. That is why deaths from vaccination related causes are rare despite the position of the antivaccination groups. I have yet to see any reliable sources for the figures they quote (like 7.8 deaths per 1000 for MMR vaccine) and of course they claim it is because the truth is suppressed. This, of course begs the question of where they are getting these numbers from, and why they should be regarded as anything other than outright fabrication. Almost eight deaths per thousand, isn’t a small number, that it cannot be verified by any legitimate secondary evidence is telling.
Stephen said:
Suit yourself, but we generally have enough committed idiots defending these things show up, that we don’t really need a devil’s advocate from the ranks of the rational.
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July 23rd, 2010 at 12:20 pm
Thanks for the info!
I consider rational defences of these things to be qualitatively different from the arguments of committed idiots. Idiots get us to check our numbers while rational arguments can get us looking at special cases, alternatives, etc.
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December 20th, 2012 at 8:21 pm
I read a bit here and vaccines are not safe due to the other ingredients added to the vaccine. I feel like all the governments are trying to poison us and kill us. I am here in the USA and they have been trying to push synthetic and toxic junk down our throats for years and it is coming to a point when there is going to be a revolution to take back the government that has been infiltrated by special interests and communism and purely evil people.
Next they are going to charge us to breath and to walk. I have read the conspiracy theories of those vaccines being loaded with sterilizing chemicals. I would not doubt it seeing how all our rights have been taken away by a false lie about 9 11. Those building where professionally brought down by demolition not those planes. They have been attacking natural safe methods of curing and prevention for many many years here in the US. Do not allow them ground there in your legal system. It will not take long and they will literally own the Judges and court system. They will also own the Media.
You let them get in and they will be there forever. Get rid of them now before you lose all your freedoms to live long and prosper. They are blood suckers and they are sucking the life out of our economy and health.
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