Psychic Advice Leads to Burning of Crocodile Sanctuary
September 9th, 2010
|
This is really a terribly sad story, the life’s work of those who had hoped to protect the endangered American Crocodile and other exotic species and further education and science has literally gone up in smoke after a psychic told villagers that the sanctuary was responsible for the disappearance of two children.
Mob Burns Croc Sanctuary— on Psychic’s Advice
An American-owned crocodile sanctuary in Belize was turned into a smoking ruin by an angry mob of indigenous Mayans. Truckloads of villagers armed with shotguns and machetes torched all the buildings on the 36-acre sanctuary after a local psychic told them that the Americans had fed two missing children to the crocs, CNN reports.
Cherie and Vince Rose, who moved to Belize and set up the American Crocodile Education Sanctuary in 2004, were away rescuing endangered crocodiles at the time. The couple say they have lost everything—apart from their two dogs, which survived the blaze—but they have no intention of giving up. “We are going to stay in Belize,” Cherie says. “We are going to fight this. I’m not abandoning those crocodiles down there.”
The ACES American Crocodile Education Sanctuary (ACES) was established by husband and wife Vince and Cherie Rose. Vince Rose is a crocodile behaviorist and Cherie Rose is a biologist. The couple moved from the United States to Belize and, with donor support, created ACES to aid in the survival of endangered Central American species, especially the endangered American Crocodile – not to be confused with the more common American Alligator.
In addition to 36 acres of protected habitat, ACES featured research and educational facilities including accommodations for visiting students and researchers. As a 100% privately funded non-profit, the sanctuary also offered guest accommodations as means of supporting its unique mission. ACES was working toward the establishment of a self-sustaining ecological tourist business to provide continuing financial support for the local area and ecology.
All of the major structures at ACES have been burned to the ground. Vince and Cherie Rose lost their home and all their possessions, but were very lucky to escape with their lives. The guest accommodations, support buildings, dock, boat house and all other major structures are also a complete loss.
This photo shows the main house after being torched. It can be found on the photo album page of the ACES website along with other images of the complete devastation as well as images of the property before being torched.
The sites blog has had only a few brief entries since the fire, including this one:
Good Morning,
First, Vince & I are praying for the return of the missing children. We still cannot believe the tragic turn of events and the very real possibility that no one except the psychic will be held accountable. We are seeking a lawyer and will no longer be able to post on facebook; but will continue to follow your postings. We sincerely appreciate everyone out there supporting us and ask that you please keep posting to keep this horrific crime in the publics’ eye. Your words give us comfort. BeedFund has succeeded in making online donations easier. We have a long road ahead of us to prosecute and rebuild; but we will perserve with your help.
Thank you just doesn’t seem to be big enough words anymore.
God Bless,
Cherie & Vince
It would be a second great tragedy if the villagers and especially the self-proclaimed psychic are not punished severely, although I would not hold my breath on anything more than a slap on the wrist being handed out on this. In total, this represents years of labor and millions of dollars toward a selfless cause reduced to ashes.
That’s what listening to a psychic will get you.
This entry was posted on Thursday, September 9th, 2010 at 1:06 pm and is filed under Bad Science, Culture, Paranormal. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
View blog reactions
September 12th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
DV82XL said:
http://www.amandala.com.bz/index.php?id=10297
Can you please tell me what’s the date of the article in that link that you just sourced earlier today? I believe it is from the 8th.
Quote Comment
September 12th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
@scotchbonnet – do you have any links to back up what you are asserting? If not they cannot be taken as anything more than your opinion.
What assertions are you talking about? I’m not being confronting, but I also do not appreciate your tone. Yes, I was a nurse and that’s how I saw the stone the man passed. If that’s what you are talking about. Other than that….I can’t find any assertions other than just like you, bits and pieces that I gleamed from the news. And the Reagan thing, well if you’re old enough to have lived at the time, yes, it was all over the news, even the comedians made much of it.
And don’t worry, my opinions count for naught, same as yours.
Quote Comment
September 12th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
BZE Bway said:
That’s not the point. Instead of waltzing in here with a lot of opinion and accusations, and demands that we do the research, you could have posted that link; then we could have had a discussion about both sides of the story. That was the point I was making with the date: this material was available to you before you started.
scotchbonnet said:
The Reagan thing is jut another indication that this is not about Belize, and yes I knew about it at the time, but being an atheist, I have no more respect for those that pray, or practice any other superstition.
You are asserting that the woman charged with inciting these events, is not a psychic, but a curandera. Since both purport to traffic in the supernatural why should this be considered relevant?
The kidney-stone thing is a nice story, but with only anecdotal evidence, worthless in this discussion.
When you suggest the Roses were without insurance because they were out of cash, you should show some proof. Did their crocs ever attack a villager? You seem to imply that they might, and so on. No proof, no evidence, no sale.
You are right you have offered nothing but opinions, laced I might add with a rather transparent hatred of the Roses. This does nothing to support your position here, and does much to damage it, and both you and BZ seem more intent at exculpating the villagers and lashing out at the Roses than showing anything but cursory concern for the missing kids.
Yes, there is more to the story here, but we are not getting it from you two.
Quote Comment
September 12th, 2010 at 10:56 pm
@laced I might add with a rather transparent hatred of the Roses.
Let me address that firstly. I don’t know the Roses from Adam so why you are ASSERTING that anyone with a different opinion than your own hates the Roses? Could imply guilt of ASSERTING that anyone who doesn’t agree with your position is a hater of people they don’t even know, couldn’t it?
Yes, the kidney stone story is cute, isn’t it? It made you chuckle. But you have a cardiologist, an endocrinologist, an internist and what not other kind of -ist as close as your phone book. Have you been to Belize? Yeah, the Bush people rely on curanderas/dos for centuries. Are you making a tongue-in-cheek joke about a lifestyle that others are dependent on? Here indeed is my very first assumption in a covert way, won’t deny it.
I asked the question “Were they out of cash?” if you care to read back, simply because I believe in the Roses. They said they were not in it for the money. So running that place must have not been cheap. And if they are insured, why are they suing the Mayas? Another question. Questions are not assumptions —hint.
@No proof, no evidence, no sale. –My god, what’s with the buzz words….you’re scaring me now.
Show me where I lashed out at the Roses. You think BZ and I hate the Roses…unfoundedly so. Maybe you want us to say punish the savages or stuff like that. Well, from what I read of BZ –he/she seems like a very intelligent person. But not a hater.
You on the other hand, wow, talk about bearing a torch of flame…
You can be an armchair atheist in your safe environment with your very own computer…not hard to do. But try being an atheist in a Mayan community with the force of the last few centuries on your back.
Try waiting for a Visiting Nurse or Doc to come to your community while you are faced with Dengue Fever in the Village. Try living with mosquitoes, sandflies, bottlass stinging you day and night. Try living in a village where there is a Croc Farm whose crocs are fed properly while you have to send your babies out to sell craboos and limes to help them survive.
To you it is strictly about a couple who very tragically lost their life savings. Others extend that sympathy as well to a village that had to fight with crocs long before a sanctuary was set up. But you don’t want to hear that…the villagers have no rights in your world.
Quote Comment
September 12th, 2010 at 11:11 pm
scotchbonnet said:
So that’s what this boils down to: a class struggle between (comparatively) rich people with what appears to be a hobby keeping crocs as pets, and dirt-poor people that were there before them, that can’t afford to put shoes on their kids.
Well I’m glad that is out in the open now. It might surprise you to know that I do not hold with that sort of neo-colonialism myself , and that I wish that indigenous people be offered a clear choice between being integrated into the dominant culture, or being left alone on their land, undisturbed. However I do not like the way that you and BZ have comported yourselves here. You could have made the point directly, and you just might have gotten some sympathy.
As it is you have damaged your position considerably.
Quote Comment
September 12th, 2010 at 11:20 pm
Was trying to put up a pic of the villagers from Southern Belize washing in the river to answer DV’s question:
@ Did their crocs ever attack a villager?
Luckily, it wouldn’t take the pic. Would just show more ignorance of a culture that some refuse to have patience with simply because they consider that culture so backwards.
The pic shows a child about 8 yrs old and an adult woman washing their clothes on big stones in the river. You can see from their clothes that it is a recent pic and they are not wearing huipils like in the old days.
Once again BZ and I do not hate or have an agenda against the Roses. But DV wants to portray us as such simply because we happen to be able to relate to both sides of the story. On the other hand, I do not like DV’s tunnel vision in this case. But I don’t even hate DV, even though I probably have him fuming, maybe?
Quote Comment
September 12th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
@ As it is you have damaged your position considerably.
Hahaha, thanks for the comic relief.
@ So that’s what this boils down to: a class struggle between (comparatively) rich people with what appears to be a hobby keeping crocs as pets, and dirt-poor people that were there before them, that can’t afford to put shoes on their kids.
Isn’t it the same way in the American Ghetto’s as well. Do you poo-poo that too?
For god sakes, people keep iguanas for pets too. One of the main staple of protein for the Mayas. But crocs eat people….ask a biologist since you don’t believe me.
What do you want? I, for one sincerely hope that the Roses get back on their feet and then some. They truly deserve the best because they could never in a million years foresee this tragedy.
One question DV, are you saying that both sides didn’t make mistakes? Cause I think that there was a culture clash which means that both sides didn’t “get” each other.
And a curandero is a spiritual profession, as much as one can get professional in the bush.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:04 am
DV82XL said:
Wow! My sole purpose in commenting here was to game you tools into supporting some agenda I am pushing.
Has it ever occurred to you that my comment was not meant to rile up a 59 year old hack in Montreal? You’re the one taking issue with my comment and I am the one trying to game you? Did my first post mention you in it at all, or even mention that it was directed to you? I have lost all respect for your old, senile, self indulging rear end. You need a life buddy, one that hopefully will include some serious meds and deity of some sort to occupy your time!
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:15 am
Look like I said, I can see that there is two side to this story, however I don’t like, and I doubt anyone else here likes attempts to manipulate us. Both of you have made getting to see your side, like pulling teeth, as you constantly prevaricated, rather than state the issues clearly. And nether of you have been very good at supplying proof or evidence, which whether you like it or not, is the fuel we run on in these pages.
That the curandero seems to have incited this incident however, was the real subject that we were set to discuss here before the thread was hijacked. Regardless of this person’s standing in her community, the fact remains that all “spiritual professions”, are a tub of manure, and that her actions caused trouble, and her accusations were a product of her imagination.
Whatever sins that the Roses are guilty of in the way of cultural insensitivity, and being rich among the poor, they are nothing beside the crimes of someone taking advantage of her own peoples ignorance, to drive them into a frenzy which has not served them well.
This was the point of the lead article, and this is the issue that we have with what has happened. The rest is in the end, local politics.
@BZE Bway – I always know when I have won one of these fights when the only thing the other idiot can do is insult me.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:18 am
Oh, so DV is a Canadian.
And he talks about neo-colonialism as if he understands colonialism in the first place. Belize got it’s independence in September 21, 1981. Now that’s understanding colonialism, not hardly a generation away.
Canada = July 1, 1867
No comparison, surely.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:27 am
DV82XL said:
I would not refer to words being thrown from behind a keyboard as a fight. You’re the one that insisted on calling people who sees things differently from you as fools, in that regards the idiot who threw that insult lost the “fight”
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:39 am
scotchbonnet said:
At least I understand what the word neo-colonialism means: Neocolonialism is a term used by critics of developed countries’ involvement in the developing world.
As for not knowing much about being a member of a subordinated peoples, I am a French-Canadian, and I know all about being treated like an alien in the country I was born in thank-you very much.
BZE Bway – it’s over now, actually it’s over now with both of you idiots. Make your final little poops of outrage, I at least won’t respond. I am through with you both.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:40 am
I, for one, did not register in Journalism 101 this semester. So, DV if you are expecting an annotated account of what I write here, I’ll reimburse you my tuition in the after-life.
What I can give you in this life is the assurance that you are simply peed off because the natives dared to fight back…meaning BZE and myself. Don’t you just hate when that happens? As if natives have rights indeed, huh!
In the meanwhile, give Quantequetzal (sp, sorry) a break.
You don’t want to hear the Mayan side of the story even from a Mayan herself….so you are hopeless. And a wannabe BULLY!
You push your kind of neo-colonialism when you say the Mayans have no rights and that Belizeans should not defend their own. You refuse every chance at even the slightest glimpse of the struggles the Mayan people faced for thousands of years till now —so everyone can understand how this horror, and yes it is a horror —happened.
There are no winners here, in case you didn’t notice. Both sides were damaged. And the name of a small, struggling country got dragged in the mud. Something you just might think is deserved? Something that laid the blame of a few on the entire country. But you think that’s a fair exchange?
What if the tourist industry now turn around an put in a lawsuit of their own for the damages this exposure has done to the industry?????? Something to think about.
Belize is fighting it’s own “civil” war in the city and some of the country side right now. It is too poor a nation to handle all of this. And this might surprise you….but Belizeans love their country. Did you just put your hands up to your ear when you read that?
I still hope the Roses get compensated and also for pain and suffering. No, they did not deserve this.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:50 am
French-Canadian — and you think you’re downtrodden? You need to take a trip to Belize, son. See what downtrodden looks like.
and you probably picked on me because of the Scotchbonnet thing….hahaaha. That explains a lot. Scotchbonnet is also a habanero pepper grown in Belize.
@ At least I understand what the word neo-colonialism means: Neocolonialism is a term used by critics of developed countries’ involvement in the developing world.
Well, you just supported what I said, thank you. Only you are not a country, just an individual on a webpage trying to strip natives of their rights to protest, to explain, to talk back to ‘missa.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:51 am
DV82XL said:
Good… lord knows we need a break from your comments, holy geez! Now maybe I can get back to “gaming” the people on here without your unwanted input.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:52 am
The dude just called me an IDIOT. Wow, now I’m really insulted. Ouch, ouch, ouch.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:56 am
Bwai, BZE, this is a fight….even though it is cyber. And I am the Mayan Warrior sent to defend the people of the jungle. I know cause the curandera sent me. Hahahaha.
Old Belizean saying : U tek bad ting mek laugh. That’s the way of the Belizeans. They have to laugh when sorrow hits.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:33 am
Just read this: Whatever sins that the Roses are guilty of in the way of cultural insensitivity, and being rich among the poor, they are nothing beside the crimes of someone taking advantage of her own peoples ignorance, to drive them into a frenzy which has not served them well.
This was the point of the lead article, and this is the issue that we have with what has happened. The rest is in the end, local politics. ======
The jungle has ate many a man for many a long years. Why do you think it won’t continue to do so? Or it only eats the natives? The curandera is just like a tree with jungle vines….it nourishes and it kills. You just have to know how to use it. It’s not cultural insensitivity here….it’s about affronting a people by bringing in predators in their mist….a people who cherish children.
When their children are missing, they go crazy. They know the jungle took them. And they fight back at the most threatening thing in their lives. I feel that had the Roses been there that day, this whole thing wouldn’t have happened. Why? Because the Mayas are a humble people and they are afraid of white people. That’s why it took the whole bunch to face the sanctuary. And mob psychology took over when opportunity and facing their dread presented itself.
Honestly, the thing to open in the spot where the sanctuary was…is a bordello. Not kidding, even. But that would have been a superior idea to opening a sanctuary for crocs or jaguars or Tommy Goffs.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 11:56 am
What an extraordinary explanation.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
You still talking, how about that.
Yes, Belize and it’s people are extraordinary phenomenas if you take the time to get to know them. Unfortunately, lately a lot of people have landed in Belize expecting to find El Dorado. What they find is a newly independent country struggling to survive, instead.
And in their haste to create or discover or even to exploit….they tend to forget they are dealing with real people who they are quick to label “the natives” then dismiss them summarily.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
scotchbonnet said:
And that has exactly zero to do with someone (psychic, curandero or whatever name you want to use) using their standing in the community to make up a story which results in a mob destroying other peoples property.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Why are you applying your personal standards to a people you don’t understand? Wasn’t enough damage already committed due to this very behavior? You think a curandero and a psychic is one and the same? And you think that the Mayans have to live with a croc farm in their mist whether they like it or not?
You think when a people finally overthrows their oppressors they are a mob? Talk to the French about their revolution. You think money is might? You think the Mayans just destroyed peoples’ property because they are instinctively a destructive people? You think this was a totally wanton act without provocation? Fine, you buy the property and you save the crocs and the entire planet at the cost of human suffering. Go to a country where you know there is poverty and superstitions and you show those people the right way to live. Build a tower where you won’t have to worry about being preyed upon by crocs and let the savages take care of themselves and their little pickaninies.
Sheeech, savages are people too. But finance comes first, right?
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
@ (psychic, curandero or whatever name you want to use)
What arrogance!
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
scotchbonnet said:
Frankly I don’t think you have understood a single thing I have written to this point, seeing it only through a haze of hate. I understand you have issues, and I make a convenient whipping-boy, but I will try one more time to get through to you.
I recognize that it took a certain amount of courage to offer up that explanation of events in comment 68, and what motivated them. It is too bad that it took you so long to get it out. Reading this earlier in the conversation would have been valuable, and could have saved us all a lot of bile.
I suspected that there was some aspect of this story you both were skirting around. As you probably are aware, First World thought in this matter would not likely accept the logic here, however it can be understood. It is, in fact, a case of cultural insensitivity.
People like the Roses, and their supporters, are moved to try and preserve endangered species, and bio-diversity, as much through a collective sense of guilt, than anything else. We recognize, that we have exploited the environment without much thought for the long-term consequences, and some try and salve their consciences by being involved, or supporting things like the Rose’s facility. What is lacking here, of course, is any sensitivity to how this might impact the locals. That’s what I meant by invoking the term ‘neo-colonialism.
Personally, especially within the context of my participation on these pages, I am only interested in finding the truth. I have no other agenda, in cases like this, and I try and keep an open mind. However, that doesn’t mean that I will buy any story uncritically. Up until now, nether one of you was making much sense, and were reacting negatively to requests for evidence to support what you were trying to say. What was also missing was some consistent reason why you disliked the Roses.
Look at it from my perspective, without the background you gave in comment #68, I had no real idea what your problem with them was. Were you accusing them of criminal activities? Were you suggesting that they had been taking advantage of the locals? Were you implying that they were running some child sacrificing, crocodile-god cult? Without some extra information, you seemed to avoiding something, and expecting us to buy into the vilification of the Roses, uncritically, while at the same time accepting you wanted them to recover.
But the explanation you gave, of a village driven by grief and frustration, lashing out a a symbol of their fear, is not only quite plausible, but logically consistent, within the terms of the situation that everyone found themselves in. I am glad that we managed to get to the bottom of this, and I hope the people there, and the Roses can come to some accommodation, You might be surprised at how understanding even white people can be, when they know the truth.
scotchbonnet said:
No, a matter of usage. Rightly or wrongly, there are many psychics (card readers, fortune tellers and such) in the North with Hispanic backgrounds that identify themselves as curandero (or curandera) I suspect you would not consider them such, but you must understand that the terms are interchangeable in some places outside of Central/South America.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
First of all, is DV82XL and ddpalmer the same person?
Okay, now let me go and read your diatribe, because that is what it is.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
scotchbonnet said:
No we are not, and try and open your eyes a bit when reading my ‘diatribe’
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
Hate, hate, hate….that is the primary word in you messages but of course it is always the other person who in your mind is doing the hating. And I have understood clearly every word you scribbled….but do you even understand what you are saying? You message is full of bitterness like the words bile, skirting around, and cultural insensitivity. It sets the tone for staging some kind of verbal battle which you are not exactly equipped to handle adequately.
@People like the Roses, and their supporters, are moved to try and preserve endangered species, and bio-diversity, as much through a collective sense of guilt, than anything else. We recognize, that we have exploited the environment without much thought for the long-term consequences, and some try and salve their consciences by being involved, or supporting things like the Rose’s facility.
And who in this wide world appointed you all GOD? So like Nietzsche said you killed god and took his place?
No wonder people went around thinking they are divinity aroused the suspicions of the whole country of Belize! Dude, come down off the high horse.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
scotchbonnet said:
First of all if we were the same person then why would we post under two different names and why wouldn’t we agree with ourselves?
Second, the police in Belize arrested the curandero for the offense of “pretending to tell fortune.†So whatever name you want to give her the term psychic fits and is in no way arrogant. Maybe you need to realize that not everybody is as bias as you are.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
scotchbonnet said:
So Belize just wants to be left on their own to sink or swim? No more foriegn aid? No foriegn developement? So it is a return to a hunter-gatherer society that you desire for your country?
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Well I tried. It would seem that scotchbonnet is not capable at this point of seeing anything even when I’m agreeing with him/her. I hope that when they have cooled down a bit they will re-read comment 74 and understand what is being said.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
scotchbonnet said:
I thought DV82XL was being rather conciliatory in comment #74. Don’t you have the grace to recognise when someone is agreeing with you? As for the criticism he delivered you concerning your attitude, you have more than earned it.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
@Up until now, nether one of you was making much sense, and were reacting negatively to requests for evidence to support what you were trying to say.—-
Of course not. I don’t suppose you do understand much of what you read universally. To a deity like yourself my brother Belizean and my Mayan self are stoooopid, huh? You just can’t understand creatures like us. We are way beneath your inflated EGO.
@Were you accusing them of criminal activities? Were you suggesting that they had been taking advantage of the locals? Were you implying that they were running some child sacrificing, crocodile-god cult? —-
Honestly you are the real IDIOT you called me before. Where the heck did you come up with such absurdities? How dare you even suggest this kind of thing? You need psychiatric help, dude.
This messages shows that you really believe, no, are convinced– that Belizeans are all idiots and savages. And you are the Great White Hope.
I don’t know how you are connected to the Roses….but you are definitely doing them a great dis-service by posting such mental depravities about them. IF you think this of the Roses, wow, don’t pretend to be on their side. With supporters like you, they will get a very bad reputation.
If I were one of the Roses, I would disassociate myself from you —-immediately. Your kind of psychosis is incurable.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
First of all, is DV82XL and ddpalmer the same person?
Yes you are. The same kind that goes down to Central and South America with your matching Island Print Walmart shorts and shirt. You feel like a big fish and you snob the natives and you call the men “boys.” Middle aged ne’er do well, with your ridiculous grins and cheap booze on your breaths. And the never ending boasting about how well off you are and what service you offer this world. Then you wallow in your self deception as you pat your balding head in the nearest mirror. The type the natives laugh at behind your backs and thank god that they are not like that.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
@Second, the police in Belize arrested the curandero for the offense of “pretending to tell fortune.†So whatever name you want to give her the term psychic fits and is in no way arrogant. Maybe you need to realize that not everybody is as bias as you are.
Yes, they arrested the curandero and she got bail right away. Where do you think that money came from? She certainly didn’t have that kind of cash on hand. Jungle drums, son, they are more effective than your iPods.
I realize that not everybody is as biased as I am….I realize that when I see how you all are salivating at the snouts for blood. You all are like the olden days where they used to burn witches and some sadists used to take their lunch along to enjoy the show.
You all want to crucify the whole village…..for material things…..and then you want just like a psychopath to turn around and look at the damaged broken BROWN bodies and say “see what you made me do.”
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
@So Belize just wants to be left on their own to sink or swim? No more foriegn aid? No foriegn developement? So it is a return to a hunter-gatherer society that you desire for your country?
Hunter-gatherer that hopefully can spell foreign and development. It it by far better for Belize to be left alone than to be harangued by carpetbaggers.
Now we have oil and maybe soon off-shore drilling. Oil that the Northern countries are hungry for. Also, we have some really, really decent investors in Belize that were intelligent enough to adapt. Like Copula for example. He’s such a gentleman. And yes, he’s friendly with the natives, but then he’s well educated too.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
@I thought DV82XL was being rather conciliatory in comment #74.
What an idiotic comment. Very much like the way you feel you are contributing to the natives by opening a croc farm in their midst. Self-serving but pretending to be Albert Schweitzer. Atheists that try to use another race’s superstition for their own purposes.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
scotchbonnet said:
I thought the facility was supposed to be a croc sanctuary, not a farm.
I personally have never been tempted to open either type of facility, anywhere, for any purpose.
So who is this Mr. Copula? Whoever he is, he’d be better served by a more mentally balanced press agent.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
@No, a matter of usage. Rightly or wrongly, there are many psychics (card readers, fortune tellers and such) in the North with Hispanic backgrounds that identify themselves as curandero (or curandera) I suspect you would not consider them such, but you must understand that the terms are interchangeable in some places outside of Central/South America. ====
I may be mistaken in your mind, but all along we were talking strictly about the Ketchi Mayas. But then you are writing to impress with your vast knowledge gleamed from Google and Wiki. All the while, you are trying to minimize the Ketchi culture and your lack of knowledge of these people you are passing judgment on.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
scotchbonnet said:
This dort of comment just makes you seem like an ideological dingaling lashing out at a stereotyped concept of what you think westerners are like. You have no idea what sort of people you are in communication with here, and your blind defensiveness renders you immune to enlightenment and to any chance to enhance your understanding of what is actually being said. Can you not go back to the passages you have been quoting and reread them with an open mind? You may be suprised at what you find.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
You’re only good at destructive criticisms and comments I see. You haven’t the faintest idea of anything about Belize, do you? But you want to rush in and condemn the indigent people as if you’ve every right to. White people good; black, brown, yellow people bad. That’s all you go by, huh?
If you knew anything at all about Belize you wouldn’t be asking who Copula is. In fact, if you knew anything at all about the Fine Arts, why would you ask such a question? And to think you would think that his press agent would be wasting time here. Are you the Roses’ press agent….lord, say it ain’t so!!!!! Those poor people are in trouble if you have anything at all to do with them.
I hope you are retired and not using up your employer’s clock to tap out the nonsense you are typing here.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
Since English is not my native tongue, I can understand how there can be some break-down in communication because of unfamiliarity with this languages use of idiom. However there seems to be no effort being made here to understand what I and others have written by the Belize contingent. Scotchbonnet seems to be more intent on venting frustration over what I suspect are very real issues in that country, and that is too bad.
It’s too bad, because no matter how satisfying it might be to rage against injustices of the sort being discussed, it does little to foster any understanding that might help avoid it in the future. The Roses made a huge error, in my opinion, opening their facility without consulting the locals, or getting to know their feelings about such a place. But errors like this will continue unless a real dialogue can be opened up. For such a dialogue to work, both sides have to avoid falling back on old stereotypes.
You are not savages, and we are all not yearning for the days when we all carried whips, and saw natives as just another exploitable resource. In fact the only burden the white man carries today is seeing that past in the eyes of those we meet in places like Belize.
If you are interested in a real discussion of how we might get along, I am willing. But you have to understand that many of us here are not potential carpetbaggers, nor do we see ourselves as modern Albert Schweitzers. We are mostly just ordinary working stiffs with our own problems, but we can influence the way our governments act toward your nation, and we can be convinced that efforts like those of the Roses are not in the locals best interests, and withhold funding.
But not if every time we seek to understand what is going on are we met with the sort of display we have seen here. You have to decide if you want to communicate, or vent – you will be listened to if you attempt the first, but you will find it counter productive if you indulge in the last.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
scotchbonnet said:
I thought my advice to reread DV82XL’s comments with an open mind was pretty constructive, but admitttedly that will require some effort on your part. I agree that I have virtually no knowledge of Belize. It’s not a subject which I’ve ever directed my interest toward before. Likewise for Copula. Who is he?
Anyhow, I’ve tried to encourage you to reconsider your judgement concerning what you have been told here, but ultimately, you are the only one who can do that for yourself.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Finrod, is English your primary language? What the heck are you talking about? You think I’m not a Westerner? Hahaha.
I am astounded at the level of decay this thread has come to. Did you think Belize is in the Middle East or in Asia?
You all do nothing but attack, attack, attack. Trying to force me to defend, defend, defend. But still, you maintain your righteousness and infallibility. It’s all pretty pathetic. And to say I will learn from these attacks…what are we playing at here….cowboys and Indians?
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
@DV82XL
Kudos to you regarding comments 74 & 91, while there a couple things in there that I take issue with, I don’t think we will be able to come to an agreement on it anytime soon, so I’ll leave it at that.
@Finrod
I think scotchbonnet is referring to Francis Ford Coppola. He owns two Resorts in Belize, I have met him before and he is quite the gentleman if I do say so myself.
@Scotchbonnet
It may serve you well my brother/sister to take a break from this forum and clear your head a bit. I as well needed a break, because unlike other posters here we have a sort of emotional attachment to the topic.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Did you think Belize is in the Middle East or in Asia?
I didn’t think about it at all. There’s really no reason an Australian with no direct interest in Belize would devote much attention to the subject.
So you’re a westerner living in Belize? What brought you there?
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
@we can be convinced that efforts like those of the Roses are not in the locals best interests, and withhold funding
I am by no means suggesting that the Roses shouldn’t be helped right now. They have been through a lot and they do need monetary help. I feel badly for them because it was an innocuous mistake seeing that the Roses didn’t have any bad intentions whatsoever.
Yes, it was the villager’s ignorance that sparked this whole affair, but these are people some of whom have no electricity or running water. Some still cook by outdoor fire-hearth and use the river to bathe, wash and travel. That’s why having the crocs by them was such a frightening ideal. And this kind of ignorance that the villagers have, passed down for generations, also has a kind of innocence about it. It’s like the Noble Savage that you read about in books. They can be such gentle people, but don’t mess with their kids.
I am also hoping that the Belize Gov will compensate the Roses so they can start over again in some shape or form. And hope the Belize Gov will reward them before the Roses have to fight for it. I do feel very badly for the Roses and wish that someone had guided them better.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
BZE Bway said:
I would honestly like to know where I have gotten it wrong. I really do want to understand both this issue in microcosm, and the larger issue of Belize and her aspirations. It may sound trite, but you guys, Finrod and myself are all Commonwealth, and although that doesn’t much anymore, if we can’t work to understand each other, we are all screwed.
If you would, I would be grateful if we could start a real conversation.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
BZE Bway said:
Ah, the fellow who directed The Godfather. Thanks for clearing that up. I had heard of him, but had not immediately known who was being referred to.
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Please everyone accept my profound apology for my excessive behavior. I am truly sorry. I know that I am very emotional when it comes to Belize and the people whom I hold so dearly.
Finrod, Belize is a western country. It was once a British colony and only just got it’s independence. Although it is in Central America, it has more in common with the other former Brit colonies like Jamaica and Trinidad etc. I want to visit Australia one day, for sure. There used to be a battalion of Ausies here for training with the Brits a good while ago and I’ll tell you…..those men were wild. But loyal to a fault, just like I admire. They were some really brave lads.
BZE Bwai, You’re right, it’s time for me to take a break. Thanks for letting me see that.
Cheers…
Quote Comment
September 13th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
scotchbonnet said:
Apology accepted, and I quite understand. Take a break for sure, but do come back, I think you have much to contribute to a rational discussion.
Quote Comment