Possibly the Most Frivolous and Ridiculous Lawsuit… EVER

September 20th, 2008

Share

On December 23, 1985, two twenty year olds, James Vance and Ray Belknap were hanging out, using illicit drugs, listening to music and becoming extremely aggravated, reportedly trashing Belknap’s room and destroying most of his property. The two both could be described as “troubled,” having a history of mental instability, drug abuse, disciplinary and social issues. At some point that night the two agreed to commit suicide together, using a sawed off shot gun. The two intoxicated young men went to a church playground and sat down to end their lives. Ray Belknap put the shot gun under his chin and fired it, then Vance took the gun and shot himself in a similar fashion.

Belknap died almost immediately after the self-inflicted gunshot, but Vance actually survived the shotgun blast. The blast, however, took off most of his face. His lips and most of his lower jaw were destroyed, as was his nost and most of the flesh on the lower part of his face. He was very fortunate that it did not destroy his eyes, (although it appears to have caused some problems to visual alignment.) It took numerous operations, but eventually, plastic surgeons were able to restore Vance’s ability to eat through his mouth (or what was left of it) and to breathe mostly normally. However, he remained severely disfigured, his face a mass of scar tissue with only a gaping hole for a mouth and no recognizable nose. Vance’s speech was also effected, and he wore a towel around his neck to wipe up the perpetual drooling saliva from his gaping hole of a mouth.

So who or what was to blame for this tragedy? Was it the drugs and alcohol? A congenital tendency toward mental instability? A failure to recognize signs of depression in the boys? Social rejection? Or perhaps it was even just the responsibility of the two themselves?

Well, according to the families, it was no such thing. The suicide and disfigurement was the direct result of that damn rock music and especially their favorite band and the one they had been listening to on that night: Judas Priest.

The families, being strongly Christian, cited how the boys had been church goers and generally had been improving in their behavior, even if they had been a bit difficult in the past. One mother said her boy had been able to quote the Bible and that his upbringing would not encourage him to do such things. Until, that is, that damn rock and roll, heavy metal music came in and polluted their good moral minds.

Sure, these parents were not the first to blame popular music for corrupting young minds. The idea that new music is evil, corrupting and even satanic is almost as old as music itself. At one time parents might complain that “Those gyrations of that young man, Elvis are highly suggestive and immoral.” Before that it could be complaints of “That new fanged Jazz is having nice young girls cutting their skirts short and cavorting with negros.”

The parents contended that the music contained subliminal messages and was designed, in part, for mind control, thus resulting in the suicides. This also was not exactly original. After all, Charlie Manson had claimed that his crimes were inspired by hidden messages in Beatles music and that described an impending race war which he was compelled to initiate. J. Edgar Hoover believed that rock and roll music may have been part of a communist plot to undermine American society and under his leadership, FBI analysts examined the popular song Louie Louie searching for hidden vulgarities in the lyrics.

The family of James Vance ended up filing a lawsuit on the grounds that the Judas Priest music he had been listening to contained subliminal messages which made Vance and Belknap unable to control their thoughts and actions and lead to their suicide pact. The suit went to court in 1990.

Their case was based on analysis of a Judas Priest song “Better By You, Better Than Me” which found what they claimed was the phrase “Do it” hidden in the audio and generally not perceptible when the song was played under normal conditions. In reality, the “do it” sounds about as much as a grunt as it does the words “do it,” but thanks to pareidolia (the human brain’s tendency to search for recognizable patterns in random images or sounds), the message becomes crystal clear and fully audible, once one is informed of what it is supposed to sound like.

Amazingly, the suit was not tossed for being absolutely ridiculous and it actually went to a full-blown civil trial, complete with testimony and cross-examination of band members as well as ‘experts’ on audio and psychology.

The case had a number of obvious problems. For one thing, the effectiveness of subliminal messages is, at best, extremely questionable. There is evidence that it is possible to convey a word or two to the subconscious without a person being explicitly aware of it. (For example: have you ever done a double take and think ‘did I just see the word sexy somewhere in that paragraph. Or some other word, for that matter.) However, the best evidence indicates that this technique is only of very limited effectiveness in effecting a person’s thoughts or emotions. At best, it may be able to remind a person of something, although even that effect is highly unreliable. The idea that it could somehow result in a kind of ‘mind control’ is pure fantasy. The concept of hiding an image or message in a single frame of a movie is not supported by evidence as being effective and the idea that it could be inserted into audio is even more dubious. Although many claims have been made, there’s no evidence at all that the subconscious mind can perceive sounds hidden in an audio track that are not audible directly.

Beyond this obvious flaw is the very substance of the message. “Do it” doesn’t mean very much without context. Do what? Jump up and down? Smile? Eat a sandwich? Kill yourself? The song itself does not have any direct references to suicide and is written from the perspective of a man who has broken up with his girlfriend.

And if that is not enough, the phrase “do it” in the song is so close to inaudible and generally difficult to distinguish without being told ahead of time that the explanation that it is just a coincidence background sound caused by the combining of multiple recording tracks is considerably more plausible than the claim that it was inserted intentionally in a mind control scheme.

Yet, a judge did actually see the claim as being substantive enough to go to trial and not go directly to the “give me a break. Is this for real?” pile. The trial was held before a judge in a so-called “bench trial” as opposed to being held before a jury. This was by choice of the Judas Priest defense team, who thought that a judge would be less likely to be swayed by appeals to emotion and graphic images of the suicide. The families were represented by Attorney Ken McKenna, who remarkably was not disbarred for this ridiculous stunt.

In the end, however, justice and basic common sense prevailed and the case against Judas Priest was dismissed, the judge ruling that the evidence did not indicate the words were inserted intentionally and agreeing that they were more likely an incidental sound in the audio track. The families stated that they would appeal the decision, but this never happened.

Despite the end ruling, this is one example of a major flaw in the legal system, simply because a group of completely innocent and legitimate artists were dragged through all the expense, stress and aggravation of a trial. At least in this case, the defendants were well off enough that it did not cause financial ruin. However, in some cases a lawsuit can, even if the end ruling is in favor of the defendant.

James Vance did not live to see the trail. Although he was involved in the initial precedings of the lawsuit, he died in 1988, two years before the suit finally went to trial. His death was caused by an overdose of painkillers. Although there the cause of the overdose was never formally ruled, the dose level was described as “suicidal,” indicating it was likely intentional.

The Story of the suicides and the trial that followed was chronicled in the documentary film Dream Deceivers: The Story Behind James Vance vs. Judas Priest

Here’s the movie, it’s an hour long, but I very much recommend watching it. It’s very compelling and well done:

Note: Sorry about the coloring being a bit off and the movie looking a little bit washed out. I downloaded it from a file sharing network and found it to have some problems with the chroma data. I applied a few filters to try to reduce the color and contrast issues, but they change from scene to scene depending on the lighting, so this was the best I could do without splitting it up and doing each scene on its own.

Click here to view on Google Video
(For browsers that do not support embedded video or to download the video as an MP4 file)

(This movie has been shown numerous times on Public Television and has been avaliable on Google Video for some time without any apparent complaints. It’s also avaliable on Youtube, although split into segments. Since it is already up I’m assuming I’m probably okay to post this and the copyright holder does not oppose it being made avaliable on such sites. This version is slightly better quality than the VHS rips that were previously avaliable. If I get any complaints, I’ll obviously remove the video.)


This entry was posted on Saturday, September 20th, 2008 at 5:26 pm and is filed under Bad Science, Culture, History, media. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
View blog reactions

35 Responses to “Possibly the Most Frivolous and Ridiculous Lawsuit… EVER”

  1. 1
    DV82XL Says:

    It seems the most fundamental trait of all religious people is the need to shift responsibility off their own shoulders and on tho someone or something else. Their lives revolve around ‘surrendering’ their will to some imaginary entity, and blaming everything bad that happens on those that do not believe as they do, of failing that claiming that this is happening to them as a ‘test of their faith.’ Basically they are not responsible for s damned thing beyond believing in something sans proof and perhaps a few rituals (because the creator of the whole universe can be manipulated by chanting by rote in some important sounding dead language.) No wonder people are attracted to this, it completly absolves them from the task of facing life down and dealing with it on its own terms.


    Quote Comment
  2. 2
    Gordon Says:

    That was a powerful documentary, even with some scenes being a bit pink or green.

    What I found amazing was the point at which the guy looked at the camera and said “There are certain people who I call murders because they murdered ray” and obviously refreshing Judas Priest. I felt offended by that. Here’s a guy who’s friend is dead because they had a suicide pact and he could have stopped it. He could have said “no that’s crazy. Put away the gun and calm down.” He didn’t. His friend probably didn’t have the guts to do it alone and so it was James Vance who is responsible for being the one who went along and made it happen. Then he tried to kill himself and look at what he did. Blew his face to pieces and completely destroyed any hope he had at any kind of a normal life. He did that to himself. All the pain and disfigurement is his fault.

    It’s amazing to me he can sit there and not fess up like a real man or a decent responsible human and say he’s sorry for his role in it and he regrets what he did to himself. He has to skapegoat it to some band who has nothing to do with him other than he listened to their records.


    Quote Comment
  3. 3
    Finrod Says:

    I reacall that doco. Rob Halford made the very good point that Judas Priest was in it (at least partly) for the money, and that encouraging their fans to commit suicide was not really a good long-term business strategy. He also mentioned that if there had been a plot to subliminaly influence people who listened to their music, it would have been more along the lines “Buy more records!”.


    Quote Comment
  4. 4
    Kim Says:

    I guess sympathy is in order for the families that lost those two guys, but as I watched this I really felt the most sympathy for the members of Judas Priest. I know they’re not poor or anything but I just was thinking “these guys don’t deserve to be dragged into this.” It had nothing to do with them. It was unfair to subject them or anyone at all to such bull and everything. I mean, yes, they’re heavy metal rockers, but still, to throw all that blame and slander at them and drag them through the mud, force them to come and defend their music infront of a judge knowing they could end up being found liable. It’s just wrong. It’s not their problem. They’re a third party who was just picked to be the scapegoat.


    Quote Comment
  5. 5
    Q Says:

    Wow I remember this but I didn’t know nearly all this about it. I just remembered hearing about it when it happened, but it’s a lot worse than I thought. It’s just plain stupid really. I wonder if this had anything to do with Rob Halford leaving the band, because he said there were a number of things that happened that stressed his relations with the band. I’m glad he finally reunited for their last two albums. A band really is not the same with a different lead singer. That just changes it completely and I don’t even consider it really the same. Their most recent stuff really sounds like Judas Priest is supposed to again. Their new album is actually pretty good. They were never my #1 favorite band, but they’re up there, at least for good 80′s metal.


    Quote Comment
  6. 6
    Andrew Says:

            DV82XL said:

    It seems the most fundamental trait of all religious people is the need to shift responsibility off their own shoulders and on tho someone or something else.

    That’s a fundamental trait of human nature.

    Other religions hold people highly responsible for what they do, even for things which many consider beyond their control, with consequences which go beyond this life and include eternal pain and misery. Or reincarnation as a lesser being. Or more immediate negative effects within the same lifetime.

    Humans simply always have a propensity to blame factors besides themselves for nearly everything.


    Quote Comment
  7. 7
    Mike Says:

    Oh my god it’s Arseface.


    Quote Comment
  8. 8
    Soylent Says:

    Vance should have aimed better.


    Quote Comment
  9. 9
    Godlessness79 Says:

    I have no sympathy for Vance. The fact that he did that to himself, I could find sympathy in, if he admitted that he was having emotional and drug problems and he did something that was stupid, shortsighted, crazy to himself. I have sympathy for anyone who is driven to suicide or an attempt at it by deep depression or mental anguish. If that was it, I’d have felt bad for him.

    I don’t have any sympathy because he’s too much of a coward, a liar and a spineless jackass to admit that he did it to himself out of mental weakness or trouble. He goes and says he could not stop himself because he was under the control of the hidden mind-control of the music. Bull****. Good riddance.


    Quote Comment
  10. 10
    StangerMan8 Says:

            DV82XL said:

    It seems the most fundamental trait of all religious people is the need to shift responsibility off their own shoulders and on tho someone or something else. Their lives revolve around ‘surrendering’ their will to some imaginary entity, and blaming everything bad that happens on those that do not believe as they do, of failing that claiming that this is happening to them as a ‘test of their faith.’

    What are you saying? That they blame the fact that it happened on their son being lead away from the good Christian way by someone? So then they’re basically saying it was god that did it because they ignored him or something? or they’re blaming Judas Priest on causing bad things when god causes good? They could blame it on Satan in general as well, and that seems like it would make more sense. I mean if God is all powerful, then a human could never take him. Satan might be able to though. I know they believe God is more powerful than Satan, but don’t they believe that Satan still gets a few small victories in once in a while?


    Quote Comment
  11. 11
    DV82XL Says:

            StangerMan8 said:

    What are you saying?

    That they blame the fact that it happened on their son being lead away from the good Christian way by someone?

    Yes, that is what they are doing when they claimed the music of Judas Priest made the boy want to kill himself.


    Quote Comment
  12. 12
    VuxZ Says:

    There is definately an undertone of middle-America Christian white trash. They are so closed minded and ignorant and generally incapable of perceiving the world that they assume this rock and roll is evil and their church is good. Very small minded in general and seems like the quintessential narrow-horizontal, ignorant kind. It would scare them and they don’t want to have a broad picture of the world. Just very shallow and small minded people. You even look at the older pics of the guy with the mullet and the dirty little mustache and he’s just the same white trash. He obviously shot himself because he’s living in a world that is very disfunctional and glazed over on the top with a sugar coating of conservative psuedo-values.

    You look at one of the mothers speaking (the brown haired one) and it’s like the glazed stare of an empty head speaking. She will never understand the world and has no desire to. She’s just striving to be the good christian 1950′s stupid housewife she has been taught to be in church all her life. What a waste of humanity.


    Quote Comment
  13. 13
    Q Says:

            DV82XL said:

    Yes, that is what they are doing when they claimed the music of Judas Priest made the boy want to kill himself.

    But if God loves their boy and God is so powerful, then why did he let it happen? Surely Judas Priest, mere mortal men, cannot stack up to God. Surely God, being all loving and caring of his children would never want to see a family torn apart or a young man’s life destroyed like this.

    Surely God could have done something, right? Inspired them with a sign from above to demonstrate his presence? Made the tape deck jam at the right moment to stem off their problems? Caused them to have an inspiring dream that would make them rethink things? Cause the shotgun to jam and the cartridge to not fire?

    Basically what they’re saying is that God wanted their family to be happy and whole, but a few mortal men of the rock band Judas Priest somehow were able to overcome the will of the alighty. How can that be?


    Quote Comment
  14. 14
    DV82XL Says:

            Q said:

    But if God loves their boy and God is so powerful, then why did he let it happen?

    Surely Judas Priest, mere mortal men, cannot stack up to God.

    Surely God, being all loving and caring of his children would never want to see a family torn apart or a young man’s life destroyed like this.

    Surely God could have done something, right?

    Inspired them with a sign from above to demonstrate his presence? Made the tape deck jam at the right moment to stem off their problems?

    Caused them to have an inspiring dream that would make them rethink things?

    Cause the shotgun to jam and the cartridge to not fire?

    Basically what they’re saying is that God wanted their family to be happy and whole, but a few mortal men of the rock band Judas Priest somehow were able to overcome the will of the alighty.

    How can that be?

    There is an indescribably powerful and intelligent being called God who has always been existence. For whatever reason, he decides to create the universe and pays particular attention to planet Earth. Having created the universe, Earth and all the species on it, he decides to focus all his attention on a collection of tribal groupings in the Middle East, in particular the Israelites who are his ‘chosen people’ and who he obsesses over, while apparently ignoring the rest of the world’s population. He lays down numerous arbitrary moral and ceremonial laws, then gets involved in inner tribal politics and land disputes, inciting acts of brutality, war crimes, genocide, and rape along the way.

    Fast forward to the Middle East under Roman occupation and God decides it’s time to put in an appearance. By mystical means he comes to earth in human form, being born of a virgin. He becomes incarnate as a Jewish male and wanders around what is today Israel-Palestine, imparting pithy social commentary (but never giving any systematic explanation of how such ideas might be made politically useful), engaging in faith healing (removing ‘demons’ from people), magic tricks, and ranting on and on about sin, eternal punishment for the majority of the world’s population, and the impending end of the world. He gets himself crucified, nominally in order that he can be a divine blood sacrifice of himself, to himself for our good. A few days later he walks out of his tomb and wanders round with some of his followers (noticeably not bothering to make himself known to anyone but those who already believed in him), before ‘ascending’ into ‘Heaven’, to wait for the time when he will return to raise every human who has ever lived in bodily form for judgment, then cast most of us into a pit of fire and take a select few into his ‘kingdom’ for eternity where their only activity will be to worshiping him.

    These are the basic building blocks upon which all Christian theology is constructed. Now given that these people believe that this is a true depiction of the important events history, I am forced to assume they rationalize events in their own pathetic lives with the same type and degree of logic; which is to say no logic at all.

    I am sure that in their compartmentalized theological worldview they can rationalize away, (and at length) all of your objections, or failing that give you a look of deep pity and say: ‘Well of course without the Grace of God, you wouldn’t understand.” Then nod knowingly, as if they had demolished all of your points on the spot.


    Quote Comment
  15. 15
    samantha Says:

    “Great post. It has interesting points regarding
    panic attacks.Learn how to control panic attacks and other useful prevention methods at http://www.whatcausespanicattacks.com. It can help you in many ways.”


    Quote Comment
  16. 16
    Chuck Says:

    Seems like it might have been worth another try.


    Quote Comment
  17. 17
    Horatio Hellfire Says:

            Q said:

    But if God loves their boy and God is so powerful, then why did he let it happen?

    Surely Judas Priest, mere mortal men, cannot stack up to God.

    Surely God, being all loving and caring of his children would never want to see a family torn apart or a young man’s life destroyed like this.

    Surely God could have done something, right?

    Inspired them with a sign from above to demonstrate his presence? Made the tape deck jam at the right moment to stem off their problems?

    Caused them to have an inspiring dream that would make them rethink things?

    Cause the shotgun to jam and the cartridge to not fire?

    Basically what they’re saying is that God wanted their family to be happy and whole, but a few mortal men of the rock band Judas Priest somehow were able to overcome the will of the alighty.

    How can that be?

    I think the default answer is “It’s all part of God’s plan and you can’t ever question it because he loves you and you will go to hell if you dare dispute the wisdom of his great secret plan”

    The other answer is that “God cannot force you to accept him and the son Jesus into your heart and if you do not then he will smite you and you burn in hell forever. Judas Priest did not accept Jesus and Vance listened to them and also did not fully accept Jesus so god did not protect him and now he burns in hell. Because god loves us all!”


    Quote Comment
  18. 18
    Gabriel Costa Finkel Says:

            DV82XL said:

    There is an indescribably powerful and intelligent being called God who has always been existence. For whatever reason, he decides to create the universe and pays particular attention to planet Earth. Having created the universe, Earth and all the species on it, he decides to focus all his attention on a collection of tribal groupings in the Middle East, in particular the Israelites who are his ‘chosen people’ and who he obsesses over, while apparently ignoring the rest of the world’s population. He lays down numerous arbitrary moral and ceremonial laws, then gets involved in inner tribal politics and land disputes, inciting acts of brutality, war crimes, genocide, and rape along the way.

    Fast forward to the Middle East under Roman occupation and God decides it’s time to put in an appearance. By mystical means he comes to earth in human form, being born of a virgin. He becomes incarnate as a Jewish male and wanders around what is today Israel-Palestine, imparting pithy social commentary (but never giving any systematic explanation of how such ideas might be made politically useful), engaging in faith healing (removing ‘demons’ from people), magic tricks, and ranting on and on about sin, eternal punishment for the majority of the world’s population, and the impending end of the world. He gets himself crucified, nominally in order that he can be a divine blood sacrifice of himself, to himself for our good. A few days later he walks out of his tomb and wanders round with some of his followers (noticeably not bothering to make himself known to anyone but those who already believed in him), before ‘ascending’ into ‘Heaven’, to wait for the time when he will return to raise every human who has ever lived in bodily form for judgment, then cast most of us into a pit of fire and take a select few into his ‘kingdom’ for eternity where their only activity will be to worshiping him.

    These are the basic building blocks upon which all Christian theology is constructed. Now given that these people believe that this is a true depiction of the important events history, I am forced to assume they rationalize events in their own pathetic lives with the same type and degree of logic; which is to say no logic at all.

    I am sure that in their compartmentalized theological worldview they can rationalize away, (and at length) all of your objections, or failing that give you a look of deep pity and say: ‘Well of course without the Grace of God, you wouldn’t understand.” Then nod knowingly, as if they had demolished all of your points on the spot.

    ]

    Great post, my friend. The human mind.. Its very easy to manipulate. Once inside the christian cell, the mind has a hard time getting out of it.

    I mean.. It’s such a cozy place, with an imaginary powerful being that will forgive all your sins and will reserve a spot for you in the skies after you’ve passed. Who wants to live in the cruel, cold, real world????

    Buy your fantasy today. You’ll find it on each corner of your life. Avalaible on all colors and fashions. Just remenber to leave your brains and your wallet in the entrance.


    Quote Comment
  19. 19
    Steve Satak Says:

    Eh. You’re all asking questions which were answered a long time ago, and not in the silly, brainless goofy manner you present.

    A gazillion Christians have looked to Him for their salvation. Most have found it. That is one of the things God did to save us from our own silly crap and craziness. But of course, there is also free will and with that, the possibility of taking a shotgun to your own head.

    If you want to know what Christians actually believe, go read ‘Mere Christianity’. Or don’t, and wallow in your smug self-congratulation. No one’s going to take YOU for a rube, eh?

    Your spiritual pride, your determination to perish rather than submit (or be thought a sucker) is the exact same sort of motivation which propelled those two fools into suicide. Small wonder they blame everyone but themselves. Small wonder you ridicule anyone who suggests that perhaps you do not exist on your own, that man is not the measure of all things.


    Quote Comment
  20. 20
    Chuck P. Says:

            Steve Satak said:

    …Your spiritual pride, your determination to perish rather than submit (or be thought a sucker) is the exact same sort of motivation which propelled those two fools into suicide. Small wonder they blame everyone but themselves.

    I’m confused.
    Are you agreeing with the author’s contention that suing Judas Priest was frivolous or not?


    Quote Comment
  21. 21
    Steve Satak Says:

    Quite frivolous. What I am suggesting is that the motivation for the lawsuit comes from the same source as the atheistic ranting in this comments section – very ironic, really. Anyway, it’s not the first time someone has charged a music group with influence due to ‘hidden messages’, but oddly enough, the hidden messages don’t seem to affect the other millions of listeners to any great degree. That fact seems to have little bearing on the lawsuit until it has made its way into court – and the lawyers have made their fees.


    Quote Comment
  22. 22
    DV82XL Says:

            Steve Satak said:

    Your spiritual pride, your determination to perish rather than submit (or be thought a sucker) is the exact same sort of motivation which propelled those two fools into suicide. Small wonder they blame everyone but themselves. Small wonder you ridicule anyone who suggests that perhaps you do not exist on your own, that man is not the measure of all things.

    On the other hand all I see from you is the conceited arrogance of one who has never bothered to understand the very theology he pretends to profess and only comments in places like this to masturbate his ego with his own self-righteousness. So intense is your need for self-victimization – so inebriating is your self-absorption and so lacking are you in any capacity for empathy — that, for all the noise and rhetoric, the arguments you make have this kind of immature schoolyard tribalistic self-absorption at its core.

    You don’t submit to any deity – you hide your egotistical fear that you are a nothing in the greater scheme of things behind some fairytale that you will never look at close enough to see it for what it really is.


    Quote Comment
  23. 23
    Steve Satak Says:

    Meh. You belong on Internet Infidels, not this blog. You really can’t or won’t see where your motives lie, or how little there is between you and that poor sod with the messed up face.

    Self-victimization indeed. Submitting to your extended rants vs actually addressing the topic of the blog is the very definition of that term.


    Quote Comment
  24. 24
    DV82XL Says:

            Steve Satak said:

    Meh. You belong on Internet Infidels, not this blog. You really can’t or won’t see where your motives lie, or how little there is between you and that poor sod with the messed up face.

    Self-victimization indeed. Submitting to your extended rants vs actually addressing the topic of the blog is the very definition of that term.

    Let us leave the question of whether I belong here or not to the owner. This blog, by the way, is devoted to skepticism, which in fact begs the question of why you are here. Surely you did not expect a warm welcome with your diatribe about submission did you? No, you came here to lecture us for not following your particular delusion, so you shouldn’t be surprised with the reception you get. In fact you are not – it’s why you came here whether you admit it or not.

    Your faith is so weak that it needs the reinforcement of assumed persecution to remove the fear that results from your own doubt.


    Quote Comment
  25. 25
    Lineswine Says:

            Steve Satak said:

    A gazillion Christians have looked to Him for their salvation. Most have found it.

    Prove it.


    Quote Comment
  26. 26
    Kat Says:

            Gordon said:

    That was a powerful documentary, even with some scenes being a bit pink or green.

    What I found amazing was the point at which the guy looked at the camera and said “There are certain people who I call murders because they murdered ray” and obviously refreshing Judas Priest.

    I felt offended by that.

    Here’s a guy who’s friend is dead because they had a suicide pact and he could have stopped it. He could have said “no that’s crazy. Put away the gun and calm down.”

    He didn’t.

    His friend probably didn’t have the guts to do it alone and so it was James Vance who is responsible for being the one who went along and made it happen.

    Then he tried to kill himself and look at what he did.

    Blew his face to pieces and completely destroyed any hope he had at any kind of a normal life.

    He did that to himself. All the pain and disfigurement is his fault.

    It’s amazing to me he can sit there and not fess up like a real man or a decent responsible human and say he’s sorry for his role in it and he regrets what he did to himself.

    He has to skapegoat it to some band who has nothing to do with him other than he listened to their records.

    I completely agree. I find his reasons, or rather reason, behind the ‘suicide pact’ with his friend to be both poor and ignorant. Scapegoat is the perfect word. His cowardice and shame forced him to attempt to condemn a band which had no aid in his mistake. Ridiculous.


    Quote Comment
  27. 27
    Ray Says:

    Religion had less to do with the lawsuit than society’s unhealthy tendency to seek corporate responsibility for individual fault. Expansion of government enforces this tendency.

    When religion doesn’t serve God’s purpose, it doesn’t logically follow that all religious activity should cease.

    To the one who says “prove God’s exists” I say: He proves it to me all the time; maybe you just haven’t been paying attention. You can look for him at an organized place of worship and you may find Him in the books of the Bible, but you might rather meet Him at sunrise on a secluded mountain top:-)


    Quote Comment
  28. 28
    DV82XL Says:

            Ray said:

    To the one who says “prove God’s exists” I say: He proves it to me all the time; maybe you just haven’t been paying attention. You can look for him at an organized place of worship and you may find Him in the books of the Bible, but you might rather meet Him at sunrise on a secluded mountain top:-)

    I used to be sure of about monsters under the bed when I was young, along with the Easter bunny. the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus, and the other Cofgods of Western culture as well – but I grew out of them, just like I grew out of the superstitions of Catholicism


    Quote Comment
  29. 29
    BMS Says:

            DV82XL said:

    I used to be sure of about monsters under the bed when I was young, along with the Easter bunny …

    You mean that there is no Easter bunny?! Please say that this is an April Fool’s joke. Who is going to deliver all of those eggs on Sunday?


    Quote Comment
  30. 30
    Routes | Suicidærum Says:

    [...] Such bad luck, amazinglym is not that rare, researching for this post I’ve come up with a similar story. [[You can read about it here... It contains pictures that might be a bit to graphical.]]  [...]


    Quote Comment
  31. 31
    CandyChrist Says:

    I am trying to figure out what happened to Mr. Vance’s mom. She is responsible for the death of her son.


    Quote Comment
  32. 32
    drbuzz0 Says:

            CandyChrist said:

    I am trying to figure out what happened to Mr. Vance’s mom. She is responsible for the death of her son.

    Um… Well, really, I think he was responsible for his own death.

    Vance died in 1988. She looked like she was, what? Maybe late 40′s to around 50?

    There’s a good chance she is still alive. My guess would be still living in a modest suburban house outside Reno.


    Quote Comment
  33. 33
    Harry S. Says:

    I like the imbeciles here that are so fast to dismiss how powerful music is and can be. Its like reading scribble from an elementary school class who know nothing about life, the world or their own bodies. Music is a powerful mental drug that can cause the brain to release many different chemicals. Over time the brain actually alters and even the cells in the body change permanently. The military knew this decades ago.
    And actually that photo of the Beatles and Communism is right on the money. Music can soothe the body, can heal the body and it can harm it. It also has a great effect on emotions. Bringing out anger is one of them. So for people to quickly dismiss the music factor, just reveals their retarded infantile mindset.
    Music has the ability to create goodness or evil, anger or pleasure. A society that promotes evil and anger will get the repercussions they deserve. Music should make people happy and content, anything less is not music but angry evil noise.


    Quote Comment
  34. 34
    DV82XL Says:

            Harry S. said:

    I like the imbeciles here that are so fast to dismiss how powerful music is and can be.ect

    Reviewing the comments it looks to me like we were having a discussion about religion and taking responsibility for one’s actions, not on the ability of music to alter mood.

    Had you not chosen to frame your remarks as a poorly focused diatribe I might have been inclined to give your remarks some consideration however since they were, I will not.


    Quote Comment
  35. 35
    Routes - Desmænok.com Says:

    […] Such bad luck, amazinglym is not that rare, researching for this post I’ve come up with a similar story. [[You can read about it here... It contains pictures that might be a bit to graphical.]] […]


    Quote Comment

Leave a Reply

Current month ye@r day *

Please copy the string LrgnDD to the field below:

*

Protected by WP Anti Spam