Paul Watson Shot? Nope, Just Another Lie
March 5th, 2010
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Paul Watson is many things: a pathological liar, a terrorist (and I don’t use that word lightly), an attempted murderer, a coward, an attention whore, a criminal, an attempted murderer and someone who generally is not to be trusted. Watson likes to play pirate and pretend he’s at war on a ship that was bought by the money from those stupid enough to donate money to his group. If he really was at war, he’d have been blown to pieces a long time ago. In his warped mind, ramming other ships, throwing glass bottles and trying to entangle their props is legitimate “law enforcement” activity.
Now that his organization has a television deal, they’ve been trying to outdo themselves for dramatic footage and news stories that will grab headlines and get some more donations. Ratings, news coverage, donations – after all, it’s all about the money.
One notorious incident includes Watson claiming he was shot by the Japanese Coast Guard, who were tasked with protecting the whalers. The situation was as follows: after repeatedly coming dangerously close to the whaling vessels, the Sea Shepherd crew began hurling glass bottles of butyric acid at the crew of the Nisshin Maru. It is claimed that this was only because butyric acid smells bad, but one should consider that these glass bottles could still have caused injury and the contents were not known to the Japanese.
The Japanese Coast Guard responded with the use of “flash bang” grenades. These are little more than firecrackers and are typically designed to create an unpleasantly loud sound and otherwise stun or confuse. They’re not very effective at repelling an attack, but the Japanese Coast Guard seems to have been under orders not to use lethal force (which I stress, they would have been justified in using.)
At this point, Watson claims he was shot and survived only because of a bullet proof vest and a badge, which just happened to catch the bullet.
This seems a bit strange, even at first glance. Normally being shot is not a small event, even with a bullet proof vest. Soft body armor will stop a bullet, but much of the force is still distributed over a small area. Typically, a person wearing a vest receives a large bruise or welt from the shot, and occasionally may even suffer a cracked rib. They may be knocked down by the shot, not only because of the force, but because of the sudden and unexpected hit that can knock the wind right out of them.
Police officers who have been shot in their vest often describe the experience as “a swift hard punch” or even “being hit with a hammer.” This does not seem to be at all what happened to Watson. The fragment which he pulls from the vest also does not appear to be a bullet, although he doesn’t let the camera get much of a look at it.
Watson described the incident:
I felt an impact on my chest at one point and didn’t think too much of it at the time and then when I opened up my survival suit – I had a bulletproof vest (on) – and there was a bullet lodged in it.
…
If I wasn’t wearing the vest it would have been pretty serious
Consider the greater context as well: why would the Japanese Coast Guard fire one and only one round at the ship? No reports exist of other bullet holes on the vessel, and even a sniper would have trouble hitting the mark on when shooting from one moving vessel to another on the rolling seas. Yet this one, solitary bullet, fired amid an attack managed to hit Watson right in the chest, and also happened to hit his badge.
The Japanese government claims that no shots were fired and that an investigation of the incident found no Coast Guard members drew their arms and no bullets were missing. They also stated that the grenades used could not account for the projectile, as these grenades were designed for use in crowd control or other non-lethal applications and therefore had no potential to produce shrapnel. At worst, the concussion of these grenades could cause a mild bruise, if they were very close to a person. A total of seven of the non-lethal devices were fired at the Sea Shepperd ship.
Sea Shepperd’s story has been less than consistent. Initially they claimed Watson was shot. Later they seemed to indicate that it was either a bullet or some kind of explosive fragment. They’ve never given much in the way of details that could confirm the incident, but later they did release this dramatic photo. The new “bullet” seems to be part of their slightly toned-down story that the bullet was actually part of a grenade or some other potentially lethal assault on their ship.
The photo is really the icing on the cake of an over the top and ridiculous story. It hearkens to a cliche tale common in old Western movies and legends of war heroes. A bullet cuts down the hero of a story, but he’s miraculously saved when it strikes directly in the center of a badge, lucky coin, pocket bible or other item.
Oh puh-lease!
This lie just keeps getting better and better!
This entry was posted on Friday, March 5th, 2010 at 2:00 pm and is filed under Bad Science, Enviornment, Just LAME, Not Even Wrong, Obfuscation, Politics, media. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
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March 5th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
The Japanese are obviously telling their security people to treat these guys with kid gloves. Flash-bang grenades are all but useless for much besides occasionally being used by SWAT teams to throw in to a dark area before storming it. (the bright flash and loud noise blinds and startles for about a second and allows them to rush in before a person can regain their sights to fire a gun.) They’re not effective for much else, especially if they’re not a surprise.
They could at least use sting-ball grenades. They’re full of rubber balls that sting like hell. Of course, occasionally they hit someone in the eye or something and that could cause some damage. They’re “less lethal” but not “always harmless”
That metal thing is clearly not a bullet, and I doubt very much it came out of any grenade or stun device. It looks like it could be half of a small container of explosive for something like that, but those are usually not designed to fly out, and even if it did somehow (which would not be very forceful), the thing is full of perchlorate and aluminum or magnesium. It would never look that clean inside. It should have some scorching or at least some partially burned grains in it.
That does not add up at all. I’m 100% sure it was not a bullet or any other lethal round and 99% sure that he just brought that along with him and made the whole thing up completely.
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March 5th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Very happy to see someone call Watson out for the fool and liar he is. Having watched a few minutes of their tv show, he also appears to be a complete idiot and incompetent to skipper a little dinghy on an inland lake, much less a large sea-going vessel.
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March 5th, 2010 at 8:41 pm
Paul Watson Shot? Nope, Just Another Lie
Pity
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March 5th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
This is what a bullet actually looks like after it hits a target:
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/308-bullets.jpg
With the way modern body armour works, you would expect a bit more fragmenting of the round, but that’s more or less what it would look like. They call it mushrooming for a reason, not cupping.
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March 5th, 2010 at 10:16 pm
I support the Sea Shepherd! I think the 007 badge number is amusing. (My membership number in a feminist womens’ health centre was 007 also? – it always brings a laugh from my women co-members?)
The real criminals and liars are the members of the Japanese govt and those who are making money from slaughtering whales for so-called “scientific reasons”? What a load of bull****! Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knows, that there has been research for decades on whales, without having to even interfere with them very much – skin, faeces etc. People at Byron Bay have been taking photos, observing etc whales for many yrs when they migrate for mating or giving birth each yr in our warm waters up north.
The Japanese govt has been breaking International Laws for yrs, and also a ruling from our Federal Court re slaughtering whales in International waters, let alone Australian waters. Successive govts in this country have been too gutless to take the appropriate action. They should have the AFP on their boats, not on Sea Shepherd. Paul Watson has never been charged with any criminal act, so I’d be very careful with this line of accusations; running the risk of defammation!
Pirates are deemed thus, as they kill and steal for personal wealth/gain. Paul Watson hasn’t done anything for personal gain. On the contrary, it’s a dangerous exercise, fighting to save whales, or stop Harp Seals being bludgeoned to death? If Australia was really ‘protecting our borders’ the Navy would be there, instead of kicking asylum seekers in the head while they try to escape a burning boat?????How many of them will be charged with assault????
It’s typical of the apologists for those whose only goal is making money, to make the ones intent on saving the environment or in this case, the Great Whales, to be the criminals! It disgusts me! If I could, I would support the Sea Shepherd financially, but being on a pension doesn’t allow it – much.
Anyway, the eating of whale meat is not recommended, and certainly not for children, as I understand it contains mercury – hardly part of a healthy diet!
Killing whales via a harpoon is horrific and cruel – they die slowly and in agony. Us humans are obscene. If it grows horizontally, cut it down, if it’s green concrete over it, and if it moves, kill it – that’s our priority! Caring for the planet is deemed to be ‘irrational and emotional’?
Japan has got its cumuppins in recent times? Toyota’s good reputation is mud around the world now – probably took shortcuts for bigger profits? Over 50 people have died, and I haven’t heard anyone calling for the executives to be charged with “industrial manslaughter”? Tony Abbott’s view? Thundering silence!
Makes me think of that saying, ‘what goes around comes around’???Or, ‘poetic justice’????
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March 5th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
You are wrong in the worst way. You did not do you research.
Paul Watson is a hero….
He puts his life on the line for the Great Whales. What have you done to save the Great Whales? What have you done to stop the Japs from killing them?
He has more honor in his little finger than you will ever have. Jerk.
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March 5th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
Somebody has been watching too much CNN…..
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March 5th, 2010 at 10:44 pm
Oh Oh someone left the door open again. I suspect we will be treated to an Asrtoturfing in support of Watson.
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March 5th, 2010 at 11:12 pm
TXMarko Says: Who would that “Somebody” be? C’mon, don’t be shy? We’re grown ups!
You help others on the planet by doing what exactly? Nothing! Fancy that! If you want to call someone a liar, you need better evidence than this nonsense?
DV82XL Says: You can please your damned self mate. I couldn’t care less. I was part of the fight in this country to put a stop to whaling. What have you ever done to improve the life expectancy of anything or anyone? What’s your claim to fame? Saving the ‘bilbies’? A rare frog? Nothin? Just as I thought!
There’s Abbott changing his mind on a daily basis re whaling; Greg Hunt whinging because Rudd hasn’t sent in the big guns, and today? Have they come out in defence of Paul Watson? No! Hypocrites! Only the Greens via Bob Brown as usual! (For those who haven’t heard, the Australian Federal Police have been on the Sea Shepherd for some hours now – via complaints of the Japanese???)
I tell you what! There’s a lot of people who support Paul Watson & his crew – you don’t buy those boats for peanuts, or fill them with fuel? So, he’s not the only “liar” out there! Going by the comments above, those people should be charged with ‘aiding and abetting’ a felony or? Piracy is a serious crime isn’t it?
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March 5th, 2010 at 11:23 pm
bj says – Well said! I’ve been ‘in love’ with Whales for nearly 40 yrs and hate the slaughter of these great creatures! Why can’t we just let them BE? No, got to make money out of anything and all we can. Once again we support the real criminals, while those who are upholding International/Australian Law are defiled?
I heard someone say the other day, that fishermen are using huge nets these days for tons and tons of krill. The nets are so large, that they can’t lift them – they just scoop up whatever is there? If this keeps up, there won’t be any baleen (majority of whales – no teeth) whales left! They’ll kill them slowly from hunger! Baleen whales use their ’siev’ to keep krill in while they expel the water?)There’s also the countries like the US wanting to take the resources from Antartica – more destruction. But Paul Watson is the deamon, the criminal, the pirate! It all depends on your morals doesn’t it?
I think the next battle is saving Harp Seals from the Canadian govt!
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March 5th, 2010 at 11:29 pm
Liz45 said:
Yes, but the charge is not ‘aiding and abetting’ a felony, it would be ‘accessory before the fact,’ which carries the same penalties as the act itself.
Paul Watson & his crew are running on a very dangerous treadmill; there is nobody more fickle than the American television audience, and there is no market more competitive when it comes to eyeballs. They have to keep raising the bar, because his show in carrying that channel, and the second it’s not drawing, the cable providers and the folks paying for it on the dish, will drop it like a stone.
They are already pushing the envelope, this staged farce over getting shot is just the start, and we are not the only ones not buying it. They are going to kill someone yet, one of there own, or one of the whalers, and that will be the end of Watson and the Sea Shepard, because that’s when the line will have been crossed. One way or the other he is on borrowed time.
BTW, you can sing what ever song you like about protecting the Whales, I’m not buying it. You see I did do the research, and the Japanese are not hunting endangered species, and the numbers they are taking are quite sustainable.
Paul Watson is doing nothing but running an agitprop theatre, for the amusement of decadent television addicts.
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March 5th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
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DV82XL Says:
March 5th, 2010 at 11:29 pm
For your information and others, I’m an Australian not an american. I don’t watch CNN or FAUX or any of the pro-corporate wealth regardless. I’m not a Lawyer, and I suggest you aren’t either. My point is, that Paul Watson and his supporters have been doing this for yrs, sadly(out of necessity) and hasn’t been charged with any crime. Steve Irwin(the late) also supported him. In fact one of the ships carries his name. There are lots of people around the world who’d be ‘charged’ and there wouldn’t be courts big enough??
And what research did you do sunshine? The ‘research’ slaughterhouse of the Japanese. What Whales are not endangered, what whales were, and what whales still are? I bet you don’t have a bloody clue. What about those who are mistaken for others that are endangered. For example, a young Blue Whale has been mistaken for an adult Fin, Sei or Minke whale – the Blue Whale’s numbers are low. Whales life cycle is similar to ours. Unlike cows, sheep and pigs, they aren’t ready to reproduce at aged 2 or so – they reach sexual maturity about the same as humans(depending on species). So, it could be some time before we really know what the Humpback numbers are for example.
What I’m against is the horrific manner in which they’re killed. I know that blokes like violent movies, games etc and are more likely to be cruel to animals than females, so it may be hard for you to understand the concept of unnecessary cruel and horrific violent deaths!
Incidently, what you think of me is not relevant. I don’t care what you think of me or my motives. OK?
And what about the violent actions of the whaling ships? Using high powered water cannon for example? What if they kill someone? OK I suppose!
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March 6th, 2010 at 12:31 am
Liz45 said:
First, if you bothered to pay attention, you would know that the antics of this group of vandals is a show on a station called Animal Planet in the States, which pays Watson & Co. for footage. Thus it has nothing to do if you watch it or not, as long as the viewers that are paying for it do (or the advertisers. ) This is what is bankrolling the Sea Shepard right now.
If you could read for comprehetion through your current rage, you would note that I did not extend an opinion about you in my last post. Frankly I couldn’t be bothered, I’m only interested in facts and you haven’t tabled any yet – you seem to only able to parrot the propaganda of your movement.
It’s been observed on more that one occation in this fourm, that those that openly accuse others of not ‘doing the research’ are generally ignorant of what the term means. To reaearch a topic, one must read all sides of the story with as open a mind as posible, and then weight the evedence. Overdosing on the propaganda from the side you have chosen as your own, however is not research. It is something called indoctrination.
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March 6th, 2010 at 12:36 am
Liz45 said:
There is no standing universally recognized international law against whaling. These whales are not endangered and as a species in international waters, there is no common law or law of the seas being broken.
I do however agree that they are breaking a treaty obligation. (which is different than a matter of law, as it only concerns the other treaty holders.) The Japanese are whaling under the auspices of the research exemption of the international whaling commission treaty. Most agree it’s a fairly transparent breach of the spirit, if not the letter of the treaty.
That said, the only body with the authority to make that decision is the IWC and until one of the IWC members makes a motion, there’s no formal violation. Even if the IWC does find against Japan, however, Japan will likely just withdraw. The IWC treaty doesn’t have much in the way of “teeth” to deal with a violation.
Now look, if the countries of the world are so offended by Japan’s whaling, there are things they can do to encourage Japan to stop. Japan is not a closed society or a rogue nation. It’s one of the most diplomatically open societies in the world. There are ways of negotiating these things using sticks and carrots that don’t involve violence. It could involve the US or Australia or someone else agreeing to Japanese concessions or doing the opposite and imposing tariff, restrictions etc on Japan. One of the most mild and symbolic ones that occasionally happens is withdrawal of a waiver of travel visas. That could go all the way up to an all out embargo.
In 1987, a dispute over whaling almost lead to the US cutting Japanese fishing quotas in US waters. That lead to Japan coming back to the bargaining table over whaling and agreeing to stay within the IWC guidelines for research whaling. That is the kind of thing that the US could do to pressure Japan.
This is how civilized societies work out there differences and come to agreements. There’s give and take.
Unfortunately, Watson has all but destroyed the hope of ending whaling through diplomacy and some gentle international pressure
The average person in Japan does not eat a whole lot of whale. Most would not notice if it vanished from the menu. If not for Watson, the average Japanese citizen very well might be convinced that whaling was bad policy.
Unfortunately, that’s now impossible. The Japanese don’t want to stand down to a big bully who is using violence to try to stop them. Because of Watson, a culinary issue has now become one of national sovereignty and pride.
If Al Queda suddenly started bombing buildings and demanding that the US stop playing rock music, everyone would buy a big stereo and play it continuously. You know why? Because nobody wants to stand down to terrorists and give the impression that they are stopping something for appeasement. That’s how Japan now feels about whaling because of Watson. Thanks to him, there’s little hope of stopping it because he’s turned it into an issue of standing up to terror tactics.
If you actually want any hope of stopping it, I suggest you do the following: Send a letter to your elected representatives and tell them you believe whaling is an important issue and you want them to vote for policies that will pressure Japan to stop it (for example, a bill that would deny Japan the right to use US fisheries if they continue to whale or a bill that would revoke various diplomatic favors for them) Send a copy of the letter to the Japanese ambassador to the US.
Granted, that one letter won’t do much on it’s own. It will if you get enough other people to do it. However, in a democracy, if enough people don’t agree with you you don’t get your way. It sucks, but it’s how a civil society functions.
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March 6th, 2010 at 12:38 am
Teh stupid. It burns!
In all seriousness, I cannot think about this subject without South Park (episode 1311) coming to mind.
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March 6th, 2010 at 12:39 am
Liz45 said:
It would be okay, by all conventions, a vessel’s captain is within his (or her) rights to take any necessary action to repel an attack by a hostile craft involved in an illegal attack and threatening the safety of the ship and crew.
It would be no different than if I shot you while you were running at me with a knife.
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March 6th, 2010 at 12:44 am
drbuzz0 said:
Very very true. Based on what I’ve seen of the Japanese response to this, any politician who is not all for whaling will not seem like they’re showing weakness to a bully attacking a national tradition and the freedom of the Japanese to make their own policy.
I don’t blame them either. Even if whaling is a tradition, traditions change and Japan is a modern country that has enviornmental concerns, so they might have been receptive to it, at least to some degree. How can they now though? Traditions are made stronger by insulting someone’s identity.
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March 6th, 2010 at 12:51 am
I AM NOT AN AMERICAN. i’M AN AUSTRALIAN! THE MURDERING JAPANESE HAVE BEEN KILLING WHALES IN OUR WATERS! NOT YOURS! THEY’RE ALSO IN CONTRAVENTION OF UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTIONS!
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DV82XL
March 6th, 2010 at 12:31 am
You bring statements that you call fact, but no proof! Take your own medicine mate! You still haven’t been able to justify this horrific cruelty!
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drbuzz0 – There is a Law – Australian Law! The Federal Court’s ruling, that’s what!
I couldn’t give a toss if Walt Disney is showing footage of the Steve Irwin!
I’ve been writing letters, protesting etc for ABOUT 40 YEARS! I couldn’t tell you the number of letters, emails etc. It was public support in the 1970’s that the then Australian Federal Govt acted upon and stopped whaling in Australia – later there was a worldwide surge to protect whales. Youu were either not born or in diapers then! There were areas put aside by the United Nations as whale sanctuaries – where the Japanese are killing whales is in one of these areas. So, you do your own bloody homework instead of taking notice of the cruel bastards killing whales! They were filmed inside Australian Territory!
If that happened in the US, you’d probably have the military out!
Your reference to Al Quaeda and your comment about Japan not giving in to ‘terrorists’ is a joke! I think when it comes to terrorists, Japan just might be well ahead on actions. Ask those who survived their death camps?When it comes to Al Quaeda, I look at the numbers killed by them around the world, and those killed by the US just in the last 18 months? Guess who’s leading hands down? Yep, you’ve got it, the good old US!
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March 6th, 2010 at 12:57 am
She is just babbling now, any semblance of rationality is gone.
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:03 am
Liz45 said:
Fine. Doesn’t matter. Australia can do the same things the US can. Write your MP or whatever and tell them to impose restrictions on Japan.
They can’t force Japan to do anything, it’s a sovereign country, but get enough countries to do something like restrict fishing or overflights or whatever, and they might start to do something.
Only now it will be twice as heard because of Watson’s idiocy.
Liz45 said:
Again, Japan is a sovereign nation. What they do in international waters is their buisiness.
Tell your government to grow some balls and take them on about it rather than letting Watson continue with his illegal and dangerous actions.
Liz45 said:
Well apparently Australia isn’t doing enough about it. They’re whaling in Australian Territory? Really? Well, then if it’s so important to you, ask your government to torpedo them. Actually, even a serious threat of that will stop them.
Are there sanctions? Well they must not be strong enough. Let me ask you, can you buy Sony or Toyota products in Australia? If you can, then there’s room for some tougher sanctions!
Anyway, all I hear here is a diplomatic dispute. If Australia is so concerned that it’s that serious then play hardball like a big country should.
Liz45 said:
Yeah maybe. Maybe you guys shouldn’t be ****.
Liz45 said:
Heh. Uh oh. Playing the nationalism game? Well, little missie, let me tell you – if you don’t like the Japanese you best be kissing the USA’s ass for making them stop at the Philippines, because if not for the massive US Pacific effort, I think the Aussies might be a province of Japan.
Speaking of which, I noticed most Australians are white. What’s going on there? There’s like just a handful of natives. What happened to them all? Oh yeah… that’s right. Well what do you expect from a country of criminals.
Okay I’ll stop now. See? I bet you didn’t like that. It’s just an inflammatory strawman, but it cuts both ways!
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:08 am
So then is Australia sanctioning what Watson does? Because if they government is opposing Japan’s whaling and not doing so themselves, but allowing Watson to act as a de facto Australian-backed ocean force, then that would make him a privateer, wouldn’t it?
I think the best thing I could say to a concerned Australian is that if you don’t think enough is being done to stop whaling then you should vote for MP’s who make it a platform issue to be as tough on Japan as possible.
How important is this issue to you? if it’s bad enough, they could freeze Japanese assets and impose a travel ban. But expect Japan to do the same in reciprocation.
My guess is that most Australians don’t consider this a big enough issue to encourage their government to take such an extreme step. But hell, maybe Liz does?
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:20 am
Q ” if you don’t like the Japanese you best be kissing the USA’s ass for making them stop at the Philippines, because if not for the massive US Pacific effort, I think the Aussies might be a province of Japan.”
Australia was in both WW1 & WW2 while the American people were living life as usual. They didn’t come in until well into both wars – 1917 the first one, and I think 1941 the second????I think you should do some work on your history, and ours! My kids paternal grandfather lost his leg in WW2 in Tobruk – I don’t think the US was off its backside by then? Perhaps just?????????
In fact, if it hadn’t been for Pearl Harbour, they propably wouldn’t have joined the Allies at all. There was a lot of support in the US for the Nazis, as there was for a while in Britain. It was Australian military who were brought home against the wishes of Churchill to defend this country – Churchill wasn’t concerned about the people here, he said that they’d fight for the top end after? Our Prime Minister told him to go to hell, more or less! After what I don’t know! And, just to reinforce your ignorance, Japan did bomb this country, both in Sydney Harbour and near Perth – at least twice!! Ignoramus!
Who introduced other politican happenings, like Al Qaeda? Not me!
The Australian Federal Govt has recently announced, that it intends taking Japan to the International Court – this is due in most part, to the overwhelming number of Australian citizens who’ve opposed whaling for 3-4 decades!
You still haven’t provided proof of the safety re numbers of whales – none of you on these posts have – not one! As you’ve been the ones criticising Paul Watson, and using this as part of your assertions, the onus is on you to provide the evidence that he’s doing it for other reasons, as the whale family is just fine!
Go on! Prove it! Hope your knowledge about this is superior to your smart arsed assertions about the Ww’s!
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:20 am
Gordon said:
The truth is that despite what Liz is saying, the Japanese are not fishing in Australian sovereign waters.
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:32 am
Liz45 said:
Australian here too. They are not “our” whales, and they are not in “our” water. They are International waters, and a bloody international whales too. The Japanese are NOT breaking ANY LAWS by hunting a set quote of whales in Antarctic Territory. They are following the GUIDELINES (That’s right, Guidelines, not laws) laid out by the International Whaling Commission.
Guess what? I hate whaling too! But they are breaking no laws! Therefore, other than politely request they cease, there is sod all our government can do about it!
And Japan bombing Perth? lolwut
I live in Perth. I think you mean Darwin.
Long story short: Whales are pretty cool, Paul Watson is a tosser, Japan isn’t breaking the law, and you are amazingly daft.
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:35 am
Liz45 said:
Australia had nothing to fear from World War I. It only participated because it was brought in by the mother country.
I think you might need to learn some history. While the US may not have gotten involved in combat in the Pacific until 1941, it was the only force that really had a chance of stopping imperial Japan. The British committed comparatively little to the Pacific due to the European war that was the primary concern.
Australia even ended committing many troops to the North African and European theaters. It didn’t start concentrating on the Pacific War until 1942.
Do you really think that Australia could have defended the Pacific against the Imperial Japanese alone? The US brought to the right 24 Essex Class Aircraft carriers, over 100 submarines, 30,000 bombers and ground attack aircraft and hundreds of cruisers, battle cruisers, destroyers, transports etc.
The Japanese Imperial Navy dwarfed all the navies in the Pacific except the US Pacific Fleet. That’s why they attacked Pearl Harbor – it was the only other fleet that could challenge them. They would have steamrolled over Australian’s navy if unopposed.
Without US forces drawing the Japanese to Midway, there’s no way they wouldn’t have grabbed New Guinea outright.
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:37 am
Curtains said:
Sorry if I sounded like I was insulting Australia, Mate. Bitch pissed me off and I was just trying to use an equally off color nationalism bull****, but I might have gone too far. I’ve got nothing bad to say about Australia. The stereotypical nation bashing is just pissing me off.
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:40 am
Curtains said:
Well, you could start doing the things suggested like start charging Japanese airlines exorbitant fees to land, start restricting sales of their products and other such things. Only problem is they’d start doing the same and both countries would end up being shot in the foot over it.
I think most Australian officials realize that it’s not worth it to make an enemy out of such an important economic power to try to stop something like whaling. I mean, maybe if they started doing things much worse…
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:44 am
Liz45: It’s quite possible that you are right and that whaling is bad. In that case, the problem should be solved through the proper channels. One can’t just gather a group of vigilantes and start attacking people, that’s terrorist thinking. If people are attacked by these vigilantes, they have the right to defend themselves.
Drop the vigilante justice, and try to advance your agenda through political and scientific means instead, and you might gain some respect and possibly accomplish something.
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March 6th, 2010 at 1:49 am
Curtain – If you go back and read what I said, you’ll notice that I did not say “our whales” I did say “our waters” as a couple of weeks ago, in one of the major Sunday papers, there was a photo of them in Australian waters? You don’t have evidence that they weren’t. Go to the Sun Herald news site and research it!
The United Nations had set aside a sanctuary for whales – Japan is giving it the middle finger!
I’m the first one to say that they are not “our” whales. They belong to nobody.
The AUSTRALIAN FEDERAL COURT has ruled, that the Japanese are whaling illegally in an area designated as a ‘whale sanctuary’? Unless you have proof to the contrary, then you’re wrong! You know better than the Court?
I get sick to death of US citizens thinking that they save the world single handed. I know our school curriculum has just been updated; I shudder to think of the bull**** they’re taught!
I said “NEAR PERTH” It was a hospital ship! It’s not long been found. don’t you pay attention to the news, let alone read?
I don’t think Paul Watson cares if you think he’s a “tosser”? I’m sure it wouldn’t keep him awake at night!
Nor do I give a s**t what any of you think of me! My skin is not as thin as it used to be. Too many drop kicks along the way!
I’m off to finish my tidy up! Better things to do. I don’t have any more to add, except that none of you have produced any proof of either numbers or where Japan is whaling, and I’ve been consistent for about 40 yrs – the sexist patronising doesn’t bother me either?
None of you have addressed the unnecessary cruelty either!
“Missy” indeed! Men, can’t help yourselves can you? Infants!
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March 6th, 2010 at 2:02 am
@Liz45:
The whales are being taken from international waters in Antarctica. No other nation on the planet recognises Australia’s somewhat ridiculous claims to the chunk of the Southern Ocean we claim for our own.
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March 6th, 2010 at 2:21 am
Liz- With all due respect and I know the following will sound disingenuous, but as someone who opposes whaling and so would like somehow to support the Whale Wars folks, people like you make it difficult because you seem so extreme. That is, I question whether people like you genuinely believe in the cause because really believing in it doesn’t mean anything people do on behalf of it is right or that it can be done any means necessary. There are clearly people who are anti-whaling who don’t support the organization. For example, Greenpeace and probably the majority of the people posting here. I don’t understand why that’s discounted by people like yourself. There are fair criticisms (and probably unfair ones). A fair one, for example. is what is addressed in the article, the fake shooting. To some people, it is not at all funny that a person was accused of a crime they likely didn’t do, even if the accused was doing something as offensive as whaling. You didn’t even try and defend the shooting as real instead you came on here to defend the organization.
Also, I understood minke whale meat was not high in mercury though dolphin and some other whale meat is?
Finally, I just read that Paul Watson said the captain of the Adi Gil was a “prisoner of war”? As someone who is related to someone who was a real POW, I kind of find the comment a bit sensationalist and, more importantly, insensitive. I am not sure if the UN defines a POW but I suspect that if it does, this “whale war” does not qualify as a war.
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March 6th, 2010 at 2:25 am
Q said:
Nah, It wasn’t directed at you. Just wanted to point out that not all Australians are blindly frothing at the mouth over this issue. *rides away on a wallaby*
Liz: Do you mean the Centaur? That sank in Queensland, not Western Australia.
These were previously posted by Pat on the Sinking of the Ady Gil post:
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/clcs_new/submissions_files/aus04/clcs_03_2004_los_jap.pdf
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/clcs_new/submissions_files/aus04/clcs_03_2004_los_usatext.pdf
We have no legal power over what happens in the Australian Antarctic Territory. The Federal Court, our politicians, they are just using dog whistle techniques to get the public fired up for the upcoming election. It happened last election, and it’ll happen again.
The Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary was created not by the UN, but by the International Whaling Commission. The IWC is a voluntary organization, and has no way of legally enforcing its guidelines. They have made great movement in preventing the over-fishing of whales, but if the entire world wanted to return to full scale commercial whaling, there isn’t much they can do about it.
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March 6th, 2010 at 4:07 am
Really, I think the only hope of stopping Japanese whaling is to appeal to the Japanese people and try to campaign for a stop to it in the media and by trying to get some grass-roots anti-whaling efforts to start there. Yes, I know it’s a tradition, but Japan is a modern country that has been generally pretty accepting to outside influence and change. You don’t see many Japanese living life by the Samari Code anymore and that was a tradition. The Japanese go nuts for baseball and love to sing disco songs at bars. I mean, it’s not beyond the relhm of possibility that they could be convinced to do something as beyond their tradition as stopping whaling.
To point out a parallel: Fox hunting is a big part of British tradition and they eventually outlawed it. Yes, there were a few traditionalists who yelled about it and said it was a cultural identity thing, but enough Brits decided that it didn’t matter enough to let it go.
No, there’s no guarantee that the Japanese would respond to a PR effort, and it might take years to have an effect, but it’s the only legitimate way of dealing with this. It’s worth a shot, at least.
The problem: I think reasonably speaking the only way you could get a good chance at maybe convincing the Japanese to consider ending whaling would be to first stop this whale wars stuff and then wait a few years for the outrage over it to end. Sea Shepherd has made it impossible to start grass roots anti-whaling in Japan now. They insulted the Japanese enough to get the whole country entrenched for whaling.
Maybe if they stop, we can hope in ten years hence, the whole thing will die down enough that considering voluntarily withdrawing would not seem like rolling over for a terrorist. Sea Shepherd has set any populist appeal effort back many years.
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March 6th, 2010 at 4:11 am
drbuzz0 said:
Wise words. Yes, no doubt Japan is a country open to negotiations and western influence and they are certainly a country with enviornmental concerns.
I also agree that ultimately the “whale wars” hurts this effort very badly.
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March 6th, 2010 at 5:30 am
Liz45 said:
They’re well within their rights to open fire with lethal weapons. They’re treating these terrorists with kid gloves while they try to drag wires into the propeller or ram the whaling vessel.
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March 6th, 2010 at 5:32 am
Liz45 said:
What a waste of a life that could have been spent doing something, anything, productive.
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March 6th, 2010 at 5:53 am
Soylent said:
I wouldn’t call it a waste (unless her protesting methods are violent). Peacefully writing letters to the proper people is the way to stop whaling, not flinging jars of acid at boats and ramming them.
Unless the letters are foaming at the mouth rage filled, then once again you’re not helping anyone.
/Devil’s Advocate
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March 6th, 2010 at 7:15 am
Curtains said:
It obviously didn’t help; pragmatically then it follows that it was a waste of time unless writing letters has some sort of therapeutic effect.
Curtains said:
Taking the postings from this blog discussion as a hint, I do not believe they were of the constructive kind.
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March 6th, 2010 at 8:37 am
Paul watson is wanted in Norway for similar actions to what he is performing against the japanese nowadays. back in 1994 he rammed a Norwegian coast guard frigate KV Andenes in an attempt to escape prosecution by law. He was endangering Norwegian whaling vessels in Norwegian coastal waters at the time. the Norwegian whalers called in the coast guard to protect their lawful interests. (Norway has been whaling for hundreds of years as well. so it is as much a cultural issue here as in Japan) GreenPeace is an outlaw organization in Norway and as a consequence. anyone found being a member can be detained and evicted from our borders without prior notice. (this havent stopped them making a local chapter under a different banner than greenpeace tho)
For some reasone greenpeace has not bothered another Norwegian whaler since then. one can wonder why that is. If Japan had adopted as strong a response agasint greenpeace as Norway has and actually just arrested the clown then much of this circus had been avoided.
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March 6th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Liz45 said:
Actually the Captain of the Whaling ship would be perfectly within his rights to use lethal force. So yes it would be perfectly OK if they killed someone. Particularly since the Japanese ship is trying hard not to.
Any deaths that resulted would be the fault of the Sea Shepard and not the Japanese.
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March 6th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Well I am glad that finally someone is calling Paul Watson what he is. I have been part of a campaign to reduce or eliminate whaling and protect fisheries through proper diplomatic negotiation and international agreements for many years and the efforts have been really set back by Sea Shepherd. They have grabbed the headlines and pushed the serious efforts to make a difference out of the forefront. Now groups who advocate against whaling seem to spend most of their time trying to make it clear that they do not advocate for the techniques that Sea Shepherd uses.
Regarding Japan’s own anti-whaling groups: Yes, believe it or not, there are or were anti-whaling efforts in Japan. There are some of the Japanese people who are very opposed to whaling. They are a minority but they were making great progress. In the 1980’s, when Japan opposed the moratorium on whaling, there were some enviornmental groups in Japan who disagreed.
Importantly, the attacks on the whaling vessels have been very polarizing and I agree that they have dramatically set back any efforts by the enviornmental groups within Japan. Unfortunately, anti-whaling has become associated with this kind of terrorism, and it is terrorism. I believe that the Japanese people who were making progress in their own country have been undermined by these kind of attacks which tarnished the reputation of the whole movement.
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March 6th, 2010 at 6:58 pm
Liz should really read the Australian Court case she is talking about. First off it was a civil not criminal case. Second the judge himself said in his findings that although the Japanese actions violated an Australian regulation it didn’t matter because they were not in internationally recognized Australian waters. So the judge himself said his ruling had no practical effect and the court case had just been a waste of time and judicial resources.
A lot of the anti-Sea Shepherd arguments can be found at endecoterrorism.com just remember they are one side of the argument and you should visit the IWC website and the Sea Shepherd site also. I especially think the Sea Shepherd News section with Paul Watson’s commentaries will be instructive. http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/commentary-and-editorial.html
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March 6th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
ddpalmer said:
Yet one more example of how those that cry ‘do the research!’ at us, never have seemed to have done it themselves.
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March 6th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Isn’t it amazing, that people who criticize Paul Watson for his alleged violent acctions advocate the use of “lethal weapons”? That several of the countries that people on this site come from, are responsible for the deaths of 1.3 million in Iraq; who knows how many in Afghanistan, and the destruction of both countries, including politically, environmentally etc. Infrastucture vital to human existence has been destroyed, and the US has/still is building permanent military bases in each, in order to steal (by one sided ‘agreements’) those countries resources – OIL in Iraq, and OIL & gas from Afghanistan via a pipeline from the Caspian Sea? The moral outrage over allegations re Paul Watson is almost amusing by contrast!
When I said I’ve been writing letters etc for over 40 yrs, I didn’t say that was all I’ve done. I’ve raised three children who are contributing in many ways to their country and society, and have welcomed grandchildren; done voluntary work and many other positive endeavours. Unlike men, who can only do one task at a time, women are capable of doing several at the same time!
I abhor all forms of violence regardless who’s doing it, and that includes state sponsored violence, whether it’s by a country determined to use horrific methods to kill creatures that don’t belong to anyone, or invading countries illegally in order to steal their resources; violence in the home, on the street or via dictatorship govts? Some criticize my ‘one sided view’ while they are also engaged in a similar or same manner, including advocating the use of lethal weapons. Talk about the pot……………………..? I suppose I should be thankful, that unlike the US, Japan doesn’t have nuclear weapons? Where would you think they should stop? A nice little depleted uranium bomb across the bow? Truly! Take a look at yourselves!
Gross hypocrisy to say the least!
It’s also amusing to read the comments by men who still insist on using paternalistic and patronising language when they engage in conversations/arguments with women. Perhaps one day…………??????
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March 6th, 2010 at 7:42 pm
All I see Liz is that you cannot answer the legitimate points others have made in this thread, and now you are flailing out with random accusations, and spouting nonsense. That is because you are now becoming dimly aware that maybe this is a multidimensional issue, and your hero might not be doing as much to solve it as you thought.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that because we think Paul Watson is a mountebank, that we are for hunting whales, frankly I oppose it except when done by indigenous people as a part of their traditional way of life. However. that doesn’t blind me to the fact that actions like those of Watson are counter-productive.
A similar thing is happening in the Harp seal hunt, that market for pelts would have disappeared on its own long ago, if it were not for the protesters. They are the ones keeping the hunt going, by making sure that the various governments will never be able to shut it down without being accused of bowing down to foreigners against their own citizens.
You reap what you sow
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March 6th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
The hands of the Australian Judge were tied by the Australian Parliment. The Judge knew he had no jurisdiction in international waters; but because his Parliment has declared those waters to be Australian, that is the premise he is forced to begin with. About that predicament, the judge said that “this is not a matter for this court to decide.” The whalers do not violate Australian law and they do not violate any international law either.
It is Sea Shepherd that violates laws. They do so in a part of the world out of easy reach of law enforcement. Paul Watson does not need to “personally gain” in order for it to meet the definition of Piracy. The definition says that acts of violence or depradation for “private ends” constitute piracy. Watson is not authorized to act on behalf of any government, i.e. “public end”. Anything he does is therefore done for a non-governmental or ‘private end’. He is a pirate.
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March 6th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
I am curious Liz what UN resolution are you referring to? Could you link it, I have been unable to find any UN resolutions concerning whaling.
I personally hate whaling, I think its ridiculous how Japan is side stepping the IWC. Its rules lawyering, legal rules lawyering, but still rules lawyering intent on violating the spirit of the IWC.
That said, Sea Shepard is a bunch of media whores, and I’m being kind leaving it at that. For the last 50 years the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) Japan’s center-right conservative party, has had a strangle hold on the Japanese political processes. In 2009 it lost to the opposing left, Democratic Party of Japan (DPJ). There was hope that with the shift in power(many of the environmental partys had attached them selves to the DPJ majority) changes, such as a phase-out or even an immediate ending of whaling might be politically possible. However Sea Shepard has made the issue so emotionally, politically, and nationally charged that changing the whaling policy is politically unsupportable, politicians don’t want their citizens to think they are collaborators, weak or toadies to some other countries agenda.
Another aspect to the whole issue as seen by the Japanese people is that anti-whaling groups are sometimes seen as being secretly racist, in that Iceland(They just call it commercial whaling) and Norway(“Scientific Whaling”) both whale yet receive so little press about the issue, comparatively.
I’m not sure it’s really racism, but one does wonder. I personally think its Japan’s lack of a firm stance concerning these groups that has made them a target. Norway and Iceland have taken firm stands against these groups(Sea Shepard, etc), and given the groups’ modus operandi they will tread lightly in those countries, after all Sea Shepard would never antagonize a country that they thought might actually call them to account for their actions.
To summarize: Sea Shepard and “Whale Wars” have set any useful/meaningful progress back at least a decade.
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March 6th, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Samuel said:
Interestingly can video of their actions constitute “loot” if it is subsequently then purchased. I mean the “Video” has value if some one wants to buy it and it was obtained during piratical activities. If so would some one paying for such video, before it was in fact recorded, be guilty of subsidizing piracy?
Just an interesting legal quandary.
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March 6th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Liz45 said:
Not advocating lethal weapons so much as pointing out that they are a legitimate response to being attacked in the manner he has.
I am of the belief that an unprovoked attack must be answered in force because not doing so invites more attack. Yes, I do advocate that terrorists be dispatched with, but in the case of Watson, truth be told, I’d rather see him answer for his crimes before a jury and be put in prison for the rest of his life.
Liz45 said:
I don’t know if you knew this, but Australia also was part of the Iraqi invasion and continues to provide support in Afgahnistan. Anyway, as far as Afghanistan goes, no infrastructure was really destroyed. There was no infrastructure to destroy. Hell, it was hardly a country to begin with.
But that’s just a strawman anyway.
Liz45 said:
Really? I’m a bit surprised, to be honest. You rant and rave more like a naive youngster than a stupid granny, but I guess it’s all the same. If nothing else, it’s worse.
There’s no fool like an old fool.
Liz45 said:
Wow. I didn’t know I could roll my eyes that far back in my head. Now we’re doing that whole ‘men are the reason the world is so bad’ crap?
Liz45 said:
Yeah, I know… it’s pretty horrible. You know in the US we have a big system of internet filters that restricts what people can view in the name of protecting people from smut. We also teach religion in public primary schools.
Oh wait… that’s not us… that’s you.
Liz45 said:
Yep, we’ve got nuclear weapons. They’re doing exactly what they’ve been doing for the past 50 years – gathering dust in silos and storage bunkers. Oh the horror!
Liz45 said:
And what would be the point of that? Depleted uranium doesn’t improve the effectiveness of bombs. Sure, it’s great for armor penitrators, but why would you make a bomb out of depleted uranium? That’s just silly!
Liz45 said:
Get over yourself. This is not a gender issue. I talk down to idiots regardless of their sex chromosome configuration.
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March 7th, 2010 at 12:25 am
About the only reason I read these comments is because they are so damned amusing. That being said, they are embarrassing not only for Australians, but feminists and environmentalists abroad. ‘Liz45′ jumps in, guns blazing with ad hominem attacks, all while missing the whole point of the article completely that is, Sea Shepard are liars. Evidently, they are. And now confronted by all the many flaws in her little arguement, ‘little missy’ is now going off in a tangent about how women are better at multitasking, how the war in Iraq apparently proves that Americans have no morals thus their opinions are irrelevant (while conveniently ignoring the previous Australian presence). Now she’s screaming ‘SEXISM’ which is only to cover up her own intellectual flaws which are readily apparent in almost all of her posts (e.g. not understanding Australian law vs international law). Liz, maybe if you stopped acting like a little child with an axe to grind, we wouldn’t call you ‘little missy’. FYI, if you hadn’t revealed that you were a feminist we would call called you a ‘little prepubescent boy’, or perhaps ‘mentally challenged’. Why? Simply because it’s so hard to take you seriously, but of course, that doesn’t mean hate men or the mentally challenged. By the way, if you go around calling people ’sunshine’ (etc..) then that’s what you can expect. You deserve it. Apparently in your universe it’s OK for you to insult other people, but it suddently becomes SEXISM when they bite back. Have I got that right, moron?
I’m beginning to think you’re deliberately trying to make feminists, Australians, anti-whalers look as absolutely stupid as possible. If that was not your intention, then congratulations, that is what you are acheiving. Do you know what the stereotype of feminists, Australians,and anti-whalers are? Feminists are perceived my many to hate men, to be angry, and to be whiny. Congratulations, you are the perfect stereotype. Anti-whalers are perceived to be eco-terrorists. And Australians are thought to be slack jawed, closed minded bogans. You’re a perfect match. And further, you’re not exactly helping perceptions given the way you speak of Americans and Japanese. Think about what you’re saying and how it will be perceived by other parties. Please don’t embarrass other Australians and environmentalists with your BS. Now go leave like you said you would.
Toodles.
- Scott (an Australian)
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