If you can’t prove it… lie?
December 22nd, 2007
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Now I find this to be just a bit funny, in a sort of ironic way. I posted this thread back a while ago in which I responded to a homeopathic practitioner about the whole issue of homeopathy. Between I said and my readers posted, it seemed that “Doctor” Sunil Sharma was looking rather bad, failing to post much in the way of proof and being generally rather vague about the “proof” of homeopathy. However, soon there were some who fell on the side of homeopathy. Jenni, Pjmilli, VKN and others started posting. Even a woman and her daughter (Paula and Cathy) showed up. It turns out Cathy is her daughter and practices homeopathy in the US. Another “doctor” showed up too and before long India, the US and Canada were all represented.
But I took a look at the comments recently and noticed something strange. You might want to look at this image of screenshots from the admin page on this blog and you’ll notice something rather strange for a group which hails from all over the world. They all have very similar IP addresses. They all start off with 59.178 andgenerally the third group has higher numbers which are over about 90. It would seem that these are all from the same IP group, possibly the same ISP and definitely the same internet backbone.
Here’s a lookup of one of the IP’s which shows that indeed this whole range is part of the same group:
More importantly, they all get the same geographic trace. Click to enlarge:
So what we have here is a bunch of IP addresses which are all from the Asia Pacific internet region and all are registered to an Indian ISP located in New Delhi. They’re also “dynamic” which means that you get a different IP address each time you log on to the net. This is common in dialup and some DSL service. But they are all from the same ISP and as it turns out, this ISP only serves a relatively small area of India.
Thus, whoever has posted these coments must either be getting their service through this ISP or perhaps is bouncing off of a proxy server on the ISP. But using a proxy server seems unlikely. None of the traces detected one, so if it is a proxy it must be one that is does not report to be so and is not public. Since the IP address is different each time it also seems unlikely. Even the same poster seems to have a different IP address each time, so the only conclusion which can be drawn is that what we have here is a group of individuals (or perhaps one individual) who have dynamic IP addresses all from the same ISP and all located in Delhi India.
It should be noted that the email addresses also seem to be from the free services. Paula and Cathy have the same email address, but I guess maybe mother and daughter share it, although that still does seem a tad bit unlikely. It’s possible that the two “Doctors” just happen to be both in the same part of India, but the only explanation for all the others would be that they’re all traveling in the same part of the country and are not home in the US, Canada or elsewhere. Or… maybe they’re “sock puppets”… just maybe.
But would a homeopath ever resort to such desperate and dishonest measures to defend homeopathy? (Um.. I think so) Actually, it makes me feel kinda important to think that someone would go to so much trouble. I mean, this blog gets a decent number of readers but not *that* many. 
So who is the dishonest, selfish one here?
This entry was posted on Saturday, December 22nd, 2007 at 1:36 pm and is filed under Bad Science, Depleted Cranium, Quackery. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
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December 24th, 2007 at 12:06 am
How childish. As I said your space, write whatever you wish. I thought you guys are discussing homeopathy. But you are most interested in who’s who. I did not know living and traveling is under your control. Well I have many family relations around the world including India. And I also travel for my professional reasons. My mother is a widow so she sometimes accompanies me. What childish gimmicks you guys are doing, you need nothing else but pity. When everything has been explained about homeopathy including its working, its efficacy, its ability to improve health, its clinical and lab research, its safe treatment, its recognition by governments around the world (including USA & Canada), its acceptance by people, growing no of colleges and hospitals and yes your 30 question your misinformation campaign was busted. And when you could not answer why allopathic drugs are not able to cure diseases around the world, why people are still suffering (and dying) even in best of allopathic hospitals, you got down to such childish gimmicks. Sorry guys you take people’s health very casually. Pity on you.
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December 24th, 2007 at 12:29 am
It would help, “Cathy,” if you answered our questions in a straight forward manner.
I asked you several times how many atoms of sodium and chlorine are in Nat Mur 30C, and you NEVER answered with a real number (your answer did not include anything that is on the top part of the keyboard below the function keys). Would you like to take another try? Tell us the number of atoms. Don’t use any fun little bits of mystical handwaving.
By the way, homeopathy is not really recognized by the USA. A person could get into legal trouble by selling homeopathic nostrums for non-self limiting conditions.
Cathy blathers on with ” And when you could not answer why allopathic drugs are not able to cure diseases around the world, why people are still suffering (and dying) even in best of allopathic hospitals,”
Guess what? This is not about real medicine, but about homeopathy.
It is also about YOUR lack of honesty. You claimed to work in the USA, but you are actually posting from India. Even if you were posting from the USA, you may actually have been breaking several American laws. If you make a claim that is not in the 1930s era literature, you can be charged with a crime.
Even after being exposed as being half a world away from where she claimed to be “she” whithers on with “you got down to such childish gimmicks. Sorry guys you take people’s health very casually. Pity on you.”
We are not the ones claiming to be somewhere else. Dr. Buzzo is in the USA, I am on the American West Coast. You are in New Delhi, but you claimed to be working in the USA. We take health very seriously. We are the ones who understand illnesses are better treated with real medicines and real medicine. I have personally had a relative resort to homeopathy for bi-polar disorder only to learn that it DID NOT WORK! We have grieved at the thought of a baby under a year old being killed through a bacterial infection because her parents used homeopathy instead of real medicine:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/death-of-baby-gloria-sparks-hunt-for-truth/2007/11/05/1194117959740.html
How about you answer our questions honestly… tell us how many sodium and chlorine atoms are in one cubic centimeter of Nat Mur 30C without any mystic handwaving, answer with a NUMBER. Then tell us where homeopathy cured a non-self limiting condition with references. No random anecdotes, a well documented case report that is in a journal indexed in PubMed.
Do that, and we may forgive you for being a blatant liar.
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December 24th, 2007 at 1:14 am
Each of these posts has a time stamp… at this moment it is a couple of minutes past midnight on the west coast of the American continent. This would be a bit after “Cathy’s” lunch hour. New Delhi is 12.5 hours off of my time zone (they have shorter time zones there).
If “Cathy” wishes to push how one feels about sickness, perhaps “she” should educate us about all the great advancements homeopathy has made in worldwide health. Like the total eradication of smallpox, oops, sorry, that was real medicine. How about curing syphilis, scarlet fever and tuberculosis.. oops, sorry again, that was real medicine. Wait, how about making sure those with diabetes lived full lives. Oops, sorry again, that was insulin, something that is real medicine. Okay, how about lengthening the lives of kids born with cystic fibrosis… Ooops, sorry again, that is real medicine. Oh, wait… how about 70% of kids surviving leukemia… oops, sorry again, that is real medicine. How about the lack of measles, mumps, polio and haemophilus influenza B killing and permanently disabling kids… oops, sorry again, that is real medicine. Oh, wait… how about seizures and epilepsy… oh, wait, that is real medicine.
Sorry, “Cathy”, remind us again what condition homeopathy has made great strides in again. It seems to have been overshadowed by real medicine. Really do you have any PubMed publications showing homeopathy is better than real medicine for anything?
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December 24th, 2007 at 8:17 am
Wow. Everyone happened to be traveling and ended up this whole time in the same city in India using the same ISP. People from Canada and the US and elsewhere. What are the chances of that???
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December 24th, 2007 at 10:01 am
The sockpuppet’s right, this is no longer about criticizing homeopathy – it’s become a troll abatement exercise. Oh, sorry that’s one in the same thing isn’t it?
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December 24th, 2007 at 10:50 am
Well homeopathy and the scientific refutation thereof is one thing, but blatant sockpuppetry is something else and just as worthy of ridicule.
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December 24th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
you are indeed not serious about peoples health. proved when you try to ridicule homeopathy and ignore all facts in favour of it, proved when you ignore all questions raised by homeopaths, proved when you quote one case against entire homeopathy and ignore millions of cases failed under allopathy. when you talk about those oops, yes indeed we value conventional medicine and its role. but you forgot that there are a large number of people who do not get relief even after years of treatment and they too deserve relief. is there pain no pain. you talk abour 60 % 70 % etc but that could have been 100 % had homeopathy got 10 % of attention conventional medicine got. by improving health homeopathy can actually bring down number of people falling sick. this is where I feel you are not serious about health. and when one big university (in USA) has taken up study of homeopathy as a possible future medicine, i realize there are people who are not using science as mask and actually studying homeopathy and its role in improving health status of population. thats what i call real scientific attitude.
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December 24th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
who is a liar we all know. i do not need to answer that. where i live where i travel. sorry but im not gonna take your permission. jesus was alone when he spoke truth but truth prevailed. it will sure now also.
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December 24th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Oh come on Sharma, we all know who you are. It’s got nothing to do with travel.. I highly doubt that everyone who comments just happens to be traveling in the same area and on the am IP.
I don’t have any problem taking on homeopathy on a scientific baisis and if you look at other entries I take on all the bad science behind it. In many cases, I make a point to respond to each and every claim made in given statements. We’ve been up and down and in and out of homeopathy here. Stop with the talking and cough up some good studies or can it. That’s the point. You can’t because there aren’t any.
In any case, the fact that this post cuts to the honesty of a homeopath has nothing to do with avoiding the scientific issues. The fact is that blatent sockpuppet use is something which is entirely legitimate to point out. This is especially true considering the dishonesty which is so common amongst homeopaths.
If I were you I’d just quit before you dig the hole deeper.
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December 25th, 2007 at 1:59 am
Evasion of answering direct questions duly noted. “Cathy” answered at a time close to a time close to coming into work if one was in New Delhi.
Enough of that, something totally off topic, a transcription of the Christmas card my brother sent to me from New Delhi:
Schools in the Hills
Geography, history and politics have crated a situation in which the Zeme NagaS – who live in the remote hilly parts of Assam, Manipur and Nagaland – are at a disadvantage in relation to communities on the plains. There are a few educated Zeme so it is hard to find teachers for the village schools. Teachers from other communities are reluctant to come into the hills. There are private schools in the villages but if harvests are bad there is no money for the teachers.
………….
And then the card continues with a plea to support those schools. Pity that it is so hard to get an education there in the country. It is hard to imagine living in a place where a free and appropriate education is available, that there are places where children are denied. Or that teachers cannot be paid.
On the back of the card it continues with a plea from a student “Our school have classes up to Class V. Our teachers love very much. Sometimes they were furious for not getting salaries. We need good teachers but peoples doesn’t like to come in village. Those who are living in town they can’t imagine to come by Root….”
Just a reminder, when in India pass by the homeopaths and “godmen”… go support a school. Also, to learn more about India and its people as it enters the 21st century read this book:
AUTHOR: Varma, Pavan K.,
TITLE: Being Indian : inside the real India
Merry Christmas
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December 25th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
Nature has this wonderful law – whatever you do to others, it comes back to you. See how you called others deluded and how you have become so. I pity. And when you write such things about India you do not realize that by world bank analysis India is going to become second biggest economy after china. Well, day is not far when others will request for donations from India.
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December 25th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
LOL your own page is shouting about PROOF OF HOMEOPATHY
http://www.quantec.ch/english/biocommunication/biocommunication_homeopathy_quantec.html
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December 25th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
From the link:
“Instrumental biocommunication with QUANTEC®
Biological organisms possess the ability to communicate with each other outside the realms of perception and measurement (biocommunication).
Instrumental biocommunication is the technique of building a physical device in such a way that it can simulate a biological system. The result: it can now receive information from other biological systems or pass it on to other systems.
The interfaces that enable a computer to communicate with biological systems are based partly on diodes that generate a white noise and partly on a process similar to the entanglement of twin photons.
The areas of application for this technology are practically unlimited. QUANTEC® is currently the only device worldwide that has so successfully come to grips with these phenomena, long known to quantum physics, that they can purposefully be used in biocommunication.”
Quack medical device, quack science.
You’re pathetic Sharma.
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December 25th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Alright lets get something straight: I never insulted India. I did say that India has problems with continued urban poverty and the health problems that come along with this as well as overcrowding. This is not anything aginst the people of India, it is simply a fact. It’s a country with great potential which has come far but it has many who still lack things we take for granted.
What I did say is that it is *shameful* for someone to practice quackery anywhere, but especially shameful in a nation which such conditions. The country is making great strides but psuedo-science and quackery are only hurt progress. It is shameful that there are people in the country who would take advantage of others. This is of course true in every country, but it’s unfortunate that they are as rampant as they are in India.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I have two good friends who were both born in India and others of Indian decent. I would love to visit the country and I wish all it’s citizens the best as their country continues to work to improve the economic situation and extend the benefits of recent growth to more people.
In the mean time, quacks are just a party of the problem.
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December 25th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
You are forgiven !!! God bless you !!!
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July 16th, 2008 at 3:10 am
“Great ideas often recieve violent opposition from mediocre minds”……………….Einstein
Dr Sharma is awarded by Government of Indian Capital. His patients includes diplomats from various countries including Europe and North America (including myself). We got better here and he helped where for years our own doctors could not help. India is a wonderful country and I extended my stay here to spend more time here and to get treatment from Dr Sharma.
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July 16th, 2008 at 6:08 am
Stupid is as stupid does
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July 16th, 2008 at 11:54 am
“But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.”
~Carl Sagan
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:01 am
Homeopathy research is going on around the world. also in usa.
http://www.homeopathy.org/research.html
you guys are sure not serious about peoples health. writing against quackery is ok but homeopathy is no quackery, it is accepted even by WHO. its use is increasing by 30 – 40 % per annum. you think anything can increase by that amount if it is not effective. and look at your mindset. you talk about one doctor or write ugly about one country. sad you cant respect peoples right to good health, peoples choice, own governments decision. shame on you. and remember do not forget to seek mercy of homeopathy when you fall sick and nothing helps. you will get the proof.
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September 26th, 2008 at 2:26 am
Please search for “homeopathy” here. I’ve taken apart studies here and they’re always flawed and that’s not surprising because the entire concept is invalid. I’m not saying anything bad about the country (India) other than the fact that it’s shameful that in a nation like India, where there are still many living with poor health care, that a quack and scam artist would be going around making the situation worse with false promises.
The entire concept behind homeopathy is not just invalid and disproven multiple times but it’s downright moronic. Homeopathy is the ultimate fraud. It’s pure 100% bull**** and has absolutely no merit of any kind in any circumstance ever.
Here: These should address everything that has ever been brought up about this mind-numbingly absurd and idiotic concept:
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=298
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=375
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=742
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=256
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=265
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=118
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=110
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=221
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=56
My favorites being these:
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=56
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=118
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=298
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=256
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=265
Oh god… I just know now we’re going to go into the quantum physics thing. Please, don’t go pee on Warner Heisenberg’s grave.
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September 27th, 2008 at 6:58 am
Just do not try to ridicule. If homeopathy is quackery it should be banned. If it works what should be done to people like you who are proving harmful for humanity. You did not answer to the point.
1. If homeopathy is quackery, why it is not banned in US.
2. Why so many doctors and colleges of homeopathy in US (and increasing). Now dont say where. Search google and you will get in plenty.
3. How it has remained popular more than 200 years and growing by about 40 % a year. (Can you sell plain water as medicine for more than 200 years and keep growing). This only proves homeopathy works and also so called conventional medicine is not able to treat sickness effectively. You think entire humanity is idiotic. When people can select givernments you think they do not have brain to chose what treatment is good for them.
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September 27th, 2008 at 11:40 am
vikram bhatt said:
Our contention is it should be banned in all jurisdictions because it doesn’t work. At any rate not being illegal is no proof of efficacy.
vikram bhatt said:
Oh we know that there are plenty, and they exist because there is vast amounts of money to be made with this scam.
vikram bhatt said:
No it does NOT prove homeopathy works or that conventional medicine is not able to treat sickness effectively. Proof requires a much higher standard than belief, which is what you are talking about. And no I don’t think humanity is idiotic, as it appears the majority still use conventional medicine. To try and suggest that homeopathy is the treatment of choice is dissemination at best.
Homeopathy and its ilk are the worse forms of fraud. Fraud that plays on the victims avarice is one thing, and in someways gives the marks what they deserve, fraud that plays on peoples health fears and suffering, and that of their children is simply despicable.
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September 27th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
vikram bhatt said:
I have every intention of ridiculing homeopathy. There are various non-mainstream scientific claims and concepts which have varying degrees of credibility. Some fall into the pile of “That was an interesting hypothesis, but it failed the test.” and others fall into “Flawed, but not completely off base.” And others might be considered “Most probably not true, but worth looking into” and others which are “Not proven or disproven. More study is needed. Insufficient data.”
But then there are those like homeopathy. It’s not just flawed or unproven, it’s ridiculous and has been shown as worthless time after time after time. To put it bluntly, it’s STUPID.
The problem is NOT ridiculing homeopathy. Treating homeopathy with respect gives the impression that it’s respectable. It’s not. It deserves no respect and people should not be lead to believe it has any backing to it.
Homeopathy should be treated with an equal amount of credibility to a field of medicine that claims that all disease can be cured by sitting on an old 1948 Admiral brand television (of the european 25 hz scan rate variety), facing north-north-west and inserting a metal coathanger into one’s urethra. It’s crazy. It’s stupid. It’s insulting it’s so wacky.
People need to realize this
vikram bhatt said:
If homeopathy were treated with the same kind of criteria for effectiveness and label and advertisement accuracy as other OTC medications or products, it would be immediately made illegal. Personally, I do not think that banning it is going to be realistic or completely effective.
I’m generally for personal freedom, so I think that people should be able to buy what they want. BUT, what I really want is to see homeopathy die because people are savy enough to not buy it. The way homeopathy will be killed is to have people understand what it is and how stupid it is. Homeopaths have one big fear and that is that the tide of public opinion will turn against them because people will start to get all the facts and see things for what they are.
That’s a lofty goal though, and really I do not expect all of society to reject homeopathy any time soon. However, each and every individual who learns something and then realizes that it’s bunk and rejects the idea is a victory. Every time a person says to a friend or family member “You know homeopathy is garbage, right? Check out this info” it’s another victory.
One thing I have thought might be helpful would be to requite a label on the products, as most medications are required to carry information on their effectiveness, ingredients and indications. This is what I’d suggest.
vikram bhatt said:
Yes there are. It’s a good way of making money off of suckers and some people are dumb or deluded enough to enroll in courses.
vikram bhatt said:
Not all of humanity is idiotic. Plenty of people reject homeopathy. That’s not the point though. It’s profitable and it has the benefit of generally not causing direct harm (except by making people avoid legitimate treatment.) If I sell water as medicine, I’m not going to need to worry about side effects or being sued for an interaction. Also, it’s basically free for me. Perfect buisiness model.
The key to having this business work is to make the public as uninformed as possible and to throw out as much extraneous information as possible, to have a great PR system and to gain sympathy. They’ve done a very good job at this. They’re very good at making themselves the victim, appealing to conspiracy theories or claims of oppression. They use every psuedo-science argument in the book.
Now as for conventional medicine and its effectiveness: Most of us don’t stop and consider how damn amazing medicine is in the 20th century. You can have a rampant bacterial infection that will kill you if left alone and you can be given a few pills and be 100% cured within a couple of days. Small Pox is gone. Polio is eliminated from the industrial world and the WHO and private programs are stamping it out elsewhere. Fingers and whole limbs can be reattached if cut off and if things turn out well can be fully functional. People who are 100% deaf can be made to hear with cochlear implants. The rates of successfully treating cancer are constantly rising. Better radiation systems enable less damage to surrounding tissue while destroying tumors. MRI and CT scans can give high resolution images of the body in 3D and see organs functioning.
On the other hand, it’s admitted that mainstream medicine is not 100% effective. There is no universal cure for cancer. Invasive cancers cannot be cured with any kind of reliability. There are viral infections for which there is no cure and only symptomatic treatments. Antibiotics are amazing, but bacteria can occasionally develop resistance against them, especially when they’re not used properly. There are people who have adverse reactions to drugs and sometimes it can be fatal and we can’t always predict who will have these. All surgeries carry risks. Some conditions are chronic and lack any good treatment.
That’s reality. That’s the way it is. It’s always getting better though. Medicine is constantly refining techniques and learning more. Every year the risks deminish, better drugs are created, diseseases are understood better. But it never reaches 100%. It never will, because when you’re dealing with nature and trying to do things like fix a human body that fails more and more with age, there are always limits and uncertainties.
On the other hand, a homeopath can claim that there is an effective treatment for a disease that legitimate doctors will say there is not one for. The reason is that real doctors tell the truth.
There is one major exception to the laws of science and reality and that is that it does not apply in fiction. If I am going to be honest then I can’t tell you there is a cure for all cancers all of the time. If I do not mind being a liar then I can tell you there is.
Quacks pray on desperate people. They tell them what they want to hear and that’s why they go to them. Someone tells a dying person they have a cure, the person may be willing to try it out of desperation.
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September 28th, 2008 at 4:04 am
vikram bhatt said:
Early on in the history of the automobile a scam device started selling claiming that it would improve fuel effeciency, keep the engine clean, give better performance and such things by using a magnet to treat the fuel. You simply slipped this device onto the fuel line.
The idea has been around since the 1930’s if not earlier. It clearly does not work. But it kept selling and has been repackaged and rebranded. It’s the same concept all the time – stick this little doodad on the fuel line and magically less fuel is consumed and it is easy to install by anyone.
Of course it never worked and still does not. It never went away though. The scam kept going. It crops more at some times. During the World War when gas was rationed it was sold like hotcakes. It sold big again in the 1970’s gas crisis. Now it is being pushed again big on TV commercials and the internet and people still buy it. There have been crackdowns on companies and suits, but others sell it.
one of the devices being sold turned out to be a 30 cent split ferrite bead you could buy at your local electronics store but it was repacked with a label as the amazing fuel saver you just clip onto the fuel line.
Now, explain to me, by your reasoning how this stupid little thing could still be selling well if it does not work. It was first sold to put on Mr. Ford’s model T and people still are suckers for it often enough to make it a viable scam. Does this seem unbelievable to you?
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September 30th, 2008 at 3:12 am
Long answers are not necessarily correct specially if they are supported by unrelated examples. Common concept of yours is – Talk bad about homeopathy, give wrong examples, claim knowledge of anatomy physiology or success of surgery as success of conventional medicine etc. But when you try to put forward conventional medicine as exclusive help to relieve sickness you forget (or ignore) those who suffer and die for lack of effect. If conventional medicine can treat everyone with surity, ok do it. But you know it cant. And in fact the growth of homeopathy proves that it is helpful and people are spreading good name. People will spread good name only when they get relief. My points are still unanswered.
1. If homeopathy is quackery, why it is not banned in US and elsewhere. What stops to ban a fraud. Because it is truly helping humanity. It is not claiming exclusive rights to treat (which conventional medicine try to) but has a rational approach.
2. Why so many doctors and colleges of homeopathy in US (and increasing). Increasing why ? They are not insane. They have seen good results so they want to heal the sick and remove suffering.
3. How it has remained popular more than 200 years and growing by about 40 % a year. This only proves homeopathy works. It is spreading because it is giving good health to people and this is what people talk about homeopathy.
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September 30th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Evidence:
vikram bhatt said:
Evidence:
vikram bhatt said:
In 1997, a London health authority decided to stop paying for homeopathic treatment after concluding that there was not enough evidence to support its use. The Lambeth, Southwark, and Lewisham Health Authority had been referring more than 500 patients per year to the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital in London. Public health doctors at the authority reviewed the published scientific literature as part of a general move toward purchasing only evidence-based treatments. The group concluded that many of the studies were methodologically flawed and that recent research produced by the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital contained no convincing evidence that homeopathy offered clinical benefit
Between October 1993 and September 1994, the FDA issued warning letters to four homeopathic manufacturers:
* BHI was ordered to stop making claims that BHI Cold, which contained sulfur and pulsatilla, were effective against mumps, whooping cough, chronic respiratory diseases, herpes zoster, all viral infections, and measles. In addition, when combined with other BHI remedies, it had been illegally claimed to be effective against otitis, pleurisy, bronchitis or pneumonia, conjunctivitis, and tracheitis.
* Botanical Laboratories, Inc., which distributed Natra-Bio products, was ordered to stop claiming that BioAllers was a homeopathic remedy for reliving symptoms of allergy due to pollen, animal hair, dander, mold, yeast, and dust. The products were promoted as homeopathic even though some ingredients were not in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia.
* L.B.L.-Bot.Bio.Hom.Corp, of Roosevelt, New York, was ordered to stop making false claims that products could prevent AIDS, reduce cholesterol, cure diabetes and other pancreas disorders, and cancerous blood disorders.
* Nutrition Express, of Houston, Texas, was warned that products it was marketing for the temporary relief of infection, minor liver disorders, lymphatic disorders, and menstrual discomforts were misbranded because their labels or labeling included statements that represented that the products were intended to be used for curing or preventing disease.
vikram bhatt said:
One reason is presumably that degrees in anti-scientific subjects exist because there is a public demand; they are vocational degrees and people are smart enough to know that magic is a good way to make money. Because money is what it is all about.
vikram bhatt said:
The question itself is superfluous, since the number of people that think something is so, is no proof that it is. Nonetheless, homeopathy is nowhere near as accepted as acupuncture. A Harvard report on Americans’ use of alternative therapies shows that homeopathy accounts for less than 0.5 percent of alternative-practitioner visits, so even if your contention was valid, the numbers don’t support it.
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September 30th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
vikram bhatt said:
No they’re not necessarily correct because they are long. However in the above case, they are correct. The examples are entirely relevant and support it.
vikram bhatt said:
Already addressed. Mainstream medicine is effective. It’s not always 100% effective. There are some things it cannot do. Not every illness can be cured. Not every patient can be saved. That’s reality.
Homeopathy, however is NEVER effective.
vikram bhatt said:
I already said it can’t. If it were possible to always treat everyone with surity, then nobody would ever die. It’s a reality that it is not always possible to treat everyone with 100% effectiveness.
For example, aggressive cancer that has become embedded in multiple vital organs – all that can be done in most cases is symptomatic treatment and treatments to slow (but not stop) progression.
Homeopathy, however, cannot even provide that. Homeopathy can’t do anything. It’s always worthless 100% of the time. It never works. It never has and never will. It’s pure fantasy and an idiotic one at that.
vikram bhatt said:
No. This has already been addressed. For one thing if it did grow at that rate it would be nearly 100% by now, Compound increase of 40% would have made homeopathy the world’s largest industry by far by now. Therefore your numbers are wrong.
Your questions were addressed. It is not that it works. It is a combination of ignorance, misinformation, scam artists preying on people and desperate people willing to sign their life over to con artists.
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October 1st, 2008 at 2:15 am
Quote – Homeopathy, however, cannot even provide that. Homeopathy can’t do anything. It’s always worthless 100% of the time. It never works. It never has and never will. It’s pure fantasy and an idiotic one at that.
Those who talk about science should not have rigid ideas. The only fact in all written is a preconceived judgement that homeopathy does not work. After that what remains is intentional denial ignoring all succesful cases of homeopathic treatment. There can be given many examples of homeopathy gaining even state approval. Many states in US and Canada now recognize homeopathy or working on bills towards that. But no one can help those who have decided to be blind.
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October 1st, 2008 at 6:35 am
Actually, the laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, which is related to Avogadro’s number, corresponds to the homeopathic potency of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024). So in a 200C product, of which there are several on the market, if a single molecule of the original substance were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100 to the power of 200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe. So yes it is pure fantasy and an idiotic one at that.
BTW in Canada, Bill C-171 seeks: “to mitigate risk of harm from homeopathic practices in the absence of statutory regulation.” Thus it ‘recognize homeopathy’ only in terms of its potential for harm, hardly a ringing endorsement.
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October 1st, 2008 at 8:12 am
Incorrect information again. Bill okays homeopathic colleges. (In 2007 if correct) So govt okays insane people to take up idiotic study and indulge in fraud with people. No, it okays because it recognizes homeopathic system of treatment. No govt will okay fraud, it only okays people’s welfare.
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October 1st, 2008 at 8:45 am
You can put whatever sort of positive spin on it you want, I quoted from the bills preamble, so I would think that the Government had other things on its mind when it tabled this legislation.
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October 1st, 2008 at 9:29 am
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18575720?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
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October 1st, 2008 at 9:36 am
From the abstract: “This study describes the process and outcome of a selected case series review through the NCI BCS Program.”
So they selected the cases that went into spontaneous remission and claim that it was the homeopathy that cured them.
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October 1st, 2008 at 9:57 am
When conventional medicine treats its treated, when homeopathy treats its sponteneous regression. When conventional medicine fails, its isolated case when homeopathy fails it proves it never works and is dangerous. Great.
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October 1st, 2008 at 10:06 am
vikram bhatt said:
FINALLY – Now you’ve got it!
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October 1st, 2008 at 10:26 am
FINALLY – All got it. Hence Proved QED.
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October 1st, 2008 at 10:31 am
Vikram, your grasp of logic is as flimsy as your grasp of science.
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October 1st, 2008 at 11:05 am
Vikram – I realize that you must be frustrated by the fact that others here have better information than you and that you’re not making very good headway arguing.
However, if you continue to make repeated posts of the same thing or numerous posts in succession for no apparent reason, then I will block you from commenting. I’m not doing that because you’re not allowed to disagree here, but flooding the page with that kind of thing is spamming and it does nothing to further your point, it only makes it difficult for others to navigate and comment on this page.
It’s also just immature.
DON’T DO THAT
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October 2nd, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I have not posted anything unrelated. I gave you pubmed evidence. My argument was based on facts and evidence, not any ridicule or personal attack. But I realize you guys are not interested in argument because you are pre determind to be blind. You wish to sing your own song, keep singing. God bless you with wisdom and heart to feel pain of suffering souls.
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October 2nd, 2008 at 11:25 pm
vikram bhatt said:
It’s not evidence if it’s only been peer-reviewed by other homeopaths – it’s collusion.
I don’t believe in gods and I hope that one day you are punished for your crimes against the sick and ignorant.
Don’t let the door hit you on the butt on the way out.
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October 3rd, 2008 at 7:33 am
vikram bhatt said:
Which was posted about six times in a row. I removed that flood of comments that was the exact same thing.
GOD I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE DO THAT
It’s not like you can just scream the same thing over and over out of frustration that nobody is buying it and think that it somehow is going to help. It’s just a flame attack that makes it difficult to discuss anything here by flooding the comments.
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October 4th, 2008 at 4:51 am
those were different studies. anyways when u say u dont bel in god, that explains your hard heartedness and lack of feeling of others pain. it is now even scientific study that those who bel in god are more compassionate. begin to bel in god, you will discover a new yourself and will be able to feel pain what people are suffering. this is not sarcasm but sincere appeal to you.
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October 4th, 2008 at 8:46 am
Ok vikram, answer me this one question, if you can:
Imagine how many compounds must be present, in quantities of a molecule or more, in every dose of a homeopathic drug. Even under the most scrupulously clean conditions, airborne dust in the manufacturing facility must carry thousands of different molecules of biological origin derived from local sources (bacteria, viruses, fungi, respiratory droplets, sloughed skin cells, insect feces) as well as distant ones (pollens, soil particles, products of combustion), along with mineral particles of terrestrial and even extraterrestrial origin (meteor dust). Similarly, the “inert” diluents used in the process must have their own library of microcontaminants.
The dilution/potentiation process in homeopathy involves a stepwise dilution carried to fantastic extremes, with “succussion” between each dilution. Succussion involves shaking or rapping the container a certain way. During the step-by-step dilution process, how is the emerging drug preparation supposed to know which of the countless substances in the container is the One that means business? How is it that thousands (millions?) of chemical compounds know that they are required to lay low, to just stand around while the Potent One is anointed to the status of Healer?
That this scenario could lead to distinct products uniquely suited to treat particular illnesses is beyond implausible.
As for feeling the pain of others please understand I have nothing but empathy for the poor, ingnorant and sick, with is why I want to protect them from parasites like you, that would take advantage of them in their hour of need.
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October 4th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
vikram bhatt said:
First, whether or not they were different studies (which they did not appear to be) I do not like to have dozens of posts with one link in a row when they could be put in one comment. Yes, if there are multiple links it may require approval, but that never takes long.
Look, I do not believe in god and this is not a choice as I see it, because choosing what one believes in based on what you want to be the case is called delusion. I don’t believe in god because the evidence speaks clearly to me and I see no logical reason to presume a higher power.
Do not go around telling me that I have no compassion. I’m not going to go into my own background, but there is nothing that I would like more than to see higher standards of living around the world, especially in areas prone to disease, poverty, hunger. Above all else, I’d like to see the minimum of good fresh water, food and basic medical care become more universal. I dislike disease and pain, to the point that I’m angry by any efforts to oppose solutions to these issues. I vigorously promote things like vaccination and improved agriculture.
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October 7th, 2008 at 1:42 am
First faith n beliefs are personal issues but having faith in god sure helps to be a better human being and it has plenty of evidence. There are numerous facts to tell about god, if you do not bel you have not understood god in correct terms. Anyways thats not debate. Homeopathy is or not is mainly discussed on two grounds. One lab and second clinical studies. The first one, unfortunately there is hardly any effort and finance to sincerely do that. Put same amount of effort n money that goes to conventional medicine, you will get it. Clinical studies are of two types. One done by those who wish to disapprove homeopathy so obviously will not take its principles & methodology into consideration and will sure never get ‘results’. Other done on the basis of homeopathic principles are discarded as ‘peer review’. Ok, I invite you, Mr Randi and anyone on earth to come and see REAL EVIDENCE in government run homeopathic hospitals across India. These are govt run where treatment is given free of cost. So money is sucked out of ‘ignorant’ patients. Now about results. These are all on record cases, you can actually come, SEE yes SEE with your own eyes. Cases like status asthmaticus, status epilepticus, drug resistant tuberculosis, kidney failure, tumors, bleeding eczema, psoriasis, ulcers, infertility, sterility, hepatitis b, cardiac arrhythmias, warts, hypertension and numerous other diseases getting better under homeopathic treatment. And these are all with investigation to prove. Still if you say that all this is done by placebo effect then only god can give you wisdom. This is the scope n evidence of homeopathy which no sane & right minded person can deny. So if you still deny, i will say you are neither honest nor sincere about people’s welfare.
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October 7th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
These statements are utterly disingenuous. You conveniently ignore several important things:
i) the vast majority of studies show homeopathy has zero effect above placebo.
ii) the method of producing homeopathic medicines involves repeat dilution to the point where not a single molecule of the original substance remains – there is no way that the medicine can do anything. It is pure water.
iii) it is based on the “principle of similars” – ie if you give someone a substance that would cause their symptoms, they will get better. So, can’t sleep – try some watered down caffeine. This is in complete contradiction ! to everything we know about how the body works.
iv) the more you dilute the substance, the stronger it becomes. Once again, this makes no sense whatsoever.
v) the set of diseases that homeopathy can allegedly cure *exactly* matches the set of diseases the body can cure itself of – colds, sore throats etc.
There is no known mechanism that homeopathy can work by, and no evidence – other than anecdotal – that it does. If that anecdotal evidence was correct, you’d see it replicated in studies – which, as I’ve said, you don’t.
I have spent a great deal of time in India, mostly in Bombay and New Delhi, and given the conditions most of the street people spend their miserable lives in, just putting them in a clean place, with freah water, and decent meals, would in and of itself, help them get over some sicknesses.
Just for the record: that a government supports something is no proof of its efficacy. Established churches have been part of the Western political landscape for centuries – it doesn’t make what is preached in them true.
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October 8th, 2008 at 8:54 am
I knew you will not have anything new, still I will answer to show how you ignore facts and give incorrect information.
These statements are utterly disingenuous. You conveniently ignore several important things:
- I have talked about core of debate. I did not indulge in irrelevant ridicule which is stupid.
i) the vast majority of studies show homeopathy has zero effect above placebo.
- Addressed. Those studies in which homeopathic methodology is not employed will not give result for sure. There are numerous studies which confirms efficacy of homeopathy.
ii) the method of producing homeopathic medicines involves repeat dilution to the point where not a single molecule of the original substance remains – there is no way that the medicine can do anything. It is pure water.
- It is not only water. Research is on study how and what changes this dilution and dynamization brings on. Scientific minds thinks – How, Unscientific mind says – Impossible.
iii) it is based on the “principle of similars” – ie if you give someone a substance that would cause their symptoms, they will get better. So, can’t sleep – try some watered down caffeine. This is in complete contradiction ! to everything we know about how the body works.
- How sad, you dont know how body works. Principle of similars in not unknown to conventional medicine. Have you not heard about rebound congestion after use of nasal decongestants or rebound acidity after antacid use.
iv) the more you dilute the substance, the stronger it becomes. Once again, this makes no sense whatsoever.
- It is not mere dilution, it is succussion. So it indeed becomes stronger. Someone wrote that ok lets dilute a medicine into sea to make it most strongest. Well you can if you have guts to success the entire sea. Higher dilution indeed gives stronger medicines thats why LM potency is strongest in homeopathy.
v) the set of diseases that homeopathy can allegedly cure *exactly* matches the set of diseases the body can cure itself of – colds, sore throats etc.
- First of all do not dare to take common cold n sore throat lightly. It gives lots of morbidity and is cause of huge financial and work hour loss in addition to suffering along with complications of repeated attacks. Yes homeopathy helps in these. I have talked about DRUG RESISTANT TUBERCULOSIS my dear where the entire protocol of conventional medicine fail and the patient is left to die. Homeopathy has cured cases like this. Homeopathy has treated cases like status asthmaticus, status epilepticus, drug resistant tuberculosis, kidney failure, tumors, bleeding eczema, psoriasis, ulcers, infertility, sterility, hepatitis b, cardiac arrhythmias, warts, hypertension and numerous others. And that too with almost one hundredth of expenditure as compared to conventional medicine.
There is no known mechanism that homeopathy can work by, and no evidence – other than anecdotal – that it does. If that anecdotal evidence was correct, you’d see it replicated in studies – which, as I’ve said, you don’t.
- Incorrect again. Good number of research studies are going on and succesfully proving working and mechanism of homeopathy again and again.
http://ccrhindia.org
I have spent a great deal of time in India, mostly in Bombay and New Delhi, and given the conditions most of the street people spend their miserable lives in, just putting them in a clean place, with freah water, and decent meals, would in and of itself, help them get over some sicknesses.
- I have read earlier too you have written silly words about India. I can write 100 things about your country and you will find no place to hide. But that is below dignity to write anything about any country. Now the facts. You were probably hiding in some five star hotel, so you have not explored India the great country that it is. Sad for you. Those on streets of India have better immunity than those in mansions of any so called developed country. And medical facilities in India are better than those of so called developed countries. And they are reachable anytime and affordable even without insurance.
Just for the record: that a government supports something is no proof of its efficacy. Established churches have been part of the Western political landscape for centuries – it doesn’t make what is preached in them true.
- I have no business to comment on churches. But yes when government in todays time support anything, it is a thought after decision for peoples welfare. Indian govt has till date not recognized acupunture but it has recognized homeopathy along with conventional medicine, ayurved yoga siddha and naturopathy. These are established therapeutic systems. There are govt run homeopathic medical colleges and hospitals giving free treatment to millions of people. Thats what welfare is.
Thats what I told. Evidence for homeopathy is right there in govt run hospitals and govt run research centres. One must have ’scientific’ mind to see.
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October 8th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
It doesn’t matter how often you repeat gibberish, it remains gibberish. These are not arguments, they are the ravings of a True Believer, like the anti-evolutionists and other fundamentalists. Like them, you invoke the name of science without any real idea of what science is or indeed how it works.
You can assert this rubbish as much as you want, particularly the nonsense about ’succussion’ ( I note you never answered question I posed in comment 49) and no legitimate scientist will believe you, because no physical mechanism for this so-called effect exists. Again like the frauds that claim proof of Intelligent Design, the only ones you fool are the ignorant.
I am tired of this exchange now, there is no room for debate between us on this subject. You are ether deluded or a fraud, ether way this is getting stale.
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October 10th, 2008 at 2:57 am
Your point of 49 has been answered, read above. I repeat Scientific minds thinks – How, Unscientific mind says – Impossible. Ok I will write no further since you are neither open to face facts nor to see evidence. Last, I hope you do not take drug resistant TB as self limiting disease, so whenever you wish to see many such cases treated with homeopathy, do visit govt run hospital in India. And if , God Forbid, You suffer, do not hesitate in taking homeopathic treatment, you will be saved.
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October 25th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Appealing to imaginary friends is so pathetic… What gods has to do with SCIENCE and medicine ? Now I understand were “homeopaths” come from… They not only have this irrational belief in homeopathy, they believe in gods too and have other delusions.
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