If you can’t prove it… lie?

December 22nd, 2007

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Now I find this to be just a bit funny, in a sort of ironic way. I posted this thread back a while ago in which I responded to a homeopathic practitioner about the whole issue of homeopathy. Between I said and my readers posted, it seemed that “Doctor” Sunil Sharma was looking rather bad, failing to post much in the way of proof and being generally rather vague about the “proof” of homeopathy. However, soon there were some who fell on the side of homeopathy. Jenni, Pjmilli, VKN and others started posting. Even a woman and her daughter (Paula and Cathy) showed up. It turns out Cathy is her daughter and practices homeopathy in the US. Another “doctor” showed up too and before long India, the US and Canada were all represented.

But I took a look at the comments recently and noticed something strange. You might want to look at this image of screenshots from the admin page on this blog and you’ll notice something rather strange for a group which hails from all over the world. They all have very similar IP addresses. They all start off with 59.178 andgenerally the third group has higher numbers which are over about 90. It would seem that these are all from the same IP group, possibly the same ISP and definitely the same internet backbone.

Here’s a lookup of one of the IP’s which shows that indeed this whole range is part of the same group:

More importantly, they all get the same geographic trace. Click to enlarge:

So what we have here is a bunch of IP addresses which are all from the Asia Pacific internet region and all are registered to an Indian ISP located in New Delhi. They’re also “dynamic” which means that you get a different IP address each time you log on to the net. This is common in dialup and some DSL service. But they are all from the same ISP and as it turns out, this ISP only serves a relatively small area of India.

Thus, whoever has posted these coments must either be getting their service through this ISP or perhaps is bouncing off of a proxy server on the ISP. But using a proxy server seems unlikely. None of the traces detected one, so if it is a proxy it must be one that is does not report to be so and is not public. Since the IP address is different each time it also seems unlikely. Even the same poster seems to have a different IP address each time, so the only conclusion which can be drawn is that what we have here is a group of individuals (or perhaps one individual) who have dynamic IP addresses all from the same ISP and all located in Delhi India.

It should be noted that the email addresses also seem to be from the free services. Paula and Cathy have the same email address, but I guess maybe mother and daughter share it, although that still does seem a tad bit unlikely. It’s possible that the two “Doctors” just happen to be both in the same part of India, but the only explanation for all the others would be that they’re all traveling in the same part of the country and are not home in the US, Canada or elsewhere. Or… maybe they’re “sock puppets”… just maybe.

But would a homeopath ever resort to such desperate and dishonest measures to defend homeopathy? (Um.. I think so) Actually, it makes me feel kinda important to think that someone would go to so much trouble. I mean, this blog gets a decent number of readers but not *that* many. ;-)

So who is the dishonest, selfish one here?


This entry was posted on Saturday, December 22nd, 2007 at 1:36 pm and is filed under Bad Science, Depleted Cranium, Quackery. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
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56 Responses to “If you can’t prove it… lie?”

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  1. 51
    vikram bhatt Says:

    First faith n beliefs are personal issues but having faith in god sure helps to be a better human being and it has plenty of evidence. There are numerous facts to tell about god, if you do not bel you have not understood god in correct terms. Anyways thats not debate. Homeopathy is or not is mainly discussed on two grounds. One lab and second clinical studies. The first one, unfortunately there is hardly any effort and finance to sincerely do that. Put same amount of effort n money that goes to conventional medicine, you will get it. Clinical studies are of two types. One done by those who wish to disapprove homeopathy so obviously will not take its principles & methodology into consideration and will sure never get ‘results’. Other done on the basis of homeopathic principles are discarded as ‘peer review’. Ok, I invite you, Mr Randi and anyone on earth to come and see REAL EVIDENCE in government run homeopathic hospitals across India. These are govt run where treatment is given free of cost. So money is sucked out of ‘ignorant’ patients. Now about results. These are all on record cases, you can actually come, SEE yes SEE with your own eyes. Cases like status asthmaticus, status epilepticus, drug resistant tuberculosis, kidney failure, tumors, bleeding eczema, psoriasis, ulcers, infertility, sterility, hepatitis b, cardiac arrhythmias, warts, hypertension and numerous other diseases getting better under homeopathic treatment. And these are all with investigation to prove. Still if you say that all this is done by placebo effect then only god can give you wisdom. This is the scope n evidence of homeopathy which no sane & right minded person can deny. So if you still deny, i will say you are neither honest nor sincere about people’s welfare.


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  2. 52
    DV82XL Says:

    These statements are utterly disingenuous. You conveniently ignore several important things:

    i) the vast majority of studies show homeopathy has zero effect above placebo.

    ii) the method of producing homeopathic medicines involves repeat dilution to the point where not a single molecule of the original substance remains – there is no way that the medicine can do anything. It is pure water.

    iii) it is based on the “principle of similars” – ie if you give someone a substance that would cause their symptoms, they will get better. So, can’t sleep – try some watered down caffeine. This is in complete contradiction ! to everything we know about how the body works.

    iv) the more you dilute the substance, the stronger it becomes. Once again, this makes no sense whatsoever.

    v) the set of diseases that homeopathy can allegedly cure *exactly* matches the set of diseases the body can cure itself of – colds, sore throats etc.

    There is no known mechanism that homeopathy can work by, and no evidence – other than anecdotal – that it does. If that anecdotal evidence was correct, you’d see it replicated in studies – which, as I’ve said, you don’t.

    I have spent a great deal of time in India, mostly in Bombay and New Delhi, and given the conditions most of the street people spend their miserable lives in, just putting them in a clean place, with freah water, and decent meals, would in and of itself, help them get over some sicknesses.

    Just for the record: that a government supports something is no proof of its efficacy. Established churches have been part of the Western political landscape for centuries – it doesn’t make what is preached in them true.


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  3. 53
    vikram bhatt Says:

    I knew you will not have anything new, still I will answer to show how you ignore facts and give incorrect information.

    These statements are utterly disingenuous. You conveniently ignore several important things:
    - I have talked about core of debate. I did not indulge in irrelevant ridicule which is stupid.

    i) the vast majority of studies show homeopathy has zero effect above placebo.
    - Addressed. Those studies in which homeopathic methodology is not employed will not give result for sure. There are numerous studies which confirms efficacy of homeopathy.

    ii) the method of producing homeopathic medicines involves repeat dilution to the point where not a single molecule of the original substance remains – there is no way that the medicine can do anything. It is pure water.
    - It is not only water. Research is on study how and what changes this dilution and dynamization brings on. Scientific minds thinks – How, Unscientific mind says – Impossible.

    iii) it is based on the “principle of similars” – ie if you give someone a substance that would cause their symptoms, they will get better. So, can’t sleep – try some watered down caffeine. This is in complete contradiction ! to everything we know about how the body works.
    - How sad, you dont know how body works. Principle of similars in not unknown to conventional medicine. Have you not heard about rebound congestion after use of nasal decongestants or rebound acidity after antacid use.

    iv) the more you dilute the substance, the stronger it becomes. Once again, this makes no sense whatsoever.
    - It is not mere dilution, it is succussion. So it indeed becomes stronger. Someone wrote that ok lets dilute a medicine into sea to make it most strongest. Well you can if you have guts to success the entire sea. Higher dilution indeed gives stronger medicines thats why LM potency is strongest in homeopathy.

    v) the set of diseases that homeopathy can allegedly cure *exactly* matches the set of diseases the body can cure itself of – colds, sore throats etc.
    - First of all do not dare to take common cold n sore throat lightly. It gives lots of morbidity and is cause of huge financial and work hour loss in addition to suffering along with complications of repeated attacks. Yes homeopathy helps in these. I have talked about DRUG RESISTANT TUBERCULOSIS my dear where the entire protocol of conventional medicine fail and the patient is left to die. Homeopathy has cured cases like this. Homeopathy has treated cases like status asthmaticus, status epilepticus, drug resistant tuberculosis, kidney failure, tumors, bleeding eczema, psoriasis, ulcers, infertility, sterility, hepatitis b, cardiac arrhythmias, warts, hypertension and numerous others. And that too with almost one hundredth of expenditure as compared to conventional medicine.

    There is no known mechanism that homeopathy can work by, and no evidence – other than anecdotal – that it does. If that anecdotal evidence was correct, you’d see it replicated in studies – which, as I’ve said, you don’t.
    - Incorrect again. Good number of research studies are going on and succesfully proving working and mechanism of homeopathy again and again.
    http://ccrhindia.org

    I have spent a great deal of time in India, mostly in Bombay and New Delhi, and given the conditions most of the street people spend their miserable lives in, just putting them in a clean place, with freah water, and decent meals, would in and of itself, help them get over some sicknesses.
    - I have read earlier too you have written silly words about India. I can write 100 things about your country and you will find no place to hide. But that is below dignity to write anything about any country. Now the facts. You were probably hiding in some five star hotel, so you have not explored India the great country that it is. Sad for you. Those on streets of India have better immunity than those in mansions of any so called developed country. And medical facilities in India are better than those of so called developed countries. And they are reachable anytime and affordable even without insurance.

    Just for the record: that a government supports something is no proof of its efficacy. Established churches have been part of the Western political landscape for centuries – it doesn’t make what is preached in them true.
    - I have no business to comment on churches. But yes when government in todays time support anything, it is a thought after decision for peoples welfare. Indian govt has till date not recognized acupunture but it has recognized homeopathy along with conventional medicine, ayurved yoga siddha and naturopathy. These are established therapeutic systems. There are govt run homeopathic medical colleges and hospitals giving free treatment to millions of people. Thats what welfare is.

    Thats what I told. Evidence for homeopathy is right there in govt run hospitals and govt run research centres. One must have ‘scientific’ mind to see.


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  4. 54
    DV82XL Says:

    It doesn’t matter how often you repeat gibberish, it remains gibberish. These are not arguments, they are the ravings of a True Believer, like the anti-evolutionists and other fundamentalists. Like them, you invoke the name of science without any real idea of what science is or indeed how it works.

    You can assert this rubbish as much as you want, particularly the nonsense about ‘succussion’ ( I note you never answered question I posed in comment 49) and no legitimate scientist will believe you, because no physical mechanism for this so-called effect exists. Again like the frauds that claim proof of Intelligent Design, the only ones you fool are the ignorant.

    I am tired of this exchange now, there is no room for debate between us on this subject. You are ether deluded or a fraud, ether way this is getting stale.


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  5. 55
    vikram bhatt Says:

    Your point of 49 has been answered, read above. I repeat Scientific minds thinks – How, Unscientific mind says – Impossible. Ok I will write no further since you are neither open to face facts nor to see evidence. Last, I hope you do not take drug resistant TB as self limiting disease, so whenever you wish to see many such cases treated with homeopathy, do visit govt run hospital in India. And if , God Forbid, You suffer, do not hesitate in taking homeopathic treatment, you will be saved.


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  6. 56
    MaikUniversum Says:

    Appealing to imaginary friends is so pathetic… What gods has to do with SCIENCE and medicine ? Now I understand were “homeopaths” come from… They not only have this irrational belief in homeopathy, they believe in gods too and have other delusions.


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