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	<title>Comments on: How Useful are Composite Sketches?</title>
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	<description>Bad Science And Scary Science</description>
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		<title>By: MRJ</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-20400</link>
		<dc:creator>MRJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-20400</guid>
		<description>One of the best writeups I&#039;ve seen on the pros and cons or composite sketches and facial reconstructions.   They actually have done some studies, and it is very iffy.   They help in some circumstances, but there are many where they clearly do not and they also can skew the memory, even of the person whose description creates them!

One thing I remember hearing about them is that if the person who is being interviewed says that they are able to help make a sketch, then they usually can, but if the person says they didn&#039;t get a good look or they&#039;re not sure if they could, they will ask them to try to do their best anyway, and these almost always come out horribly.   So the moral is that if someone says they can, let them, but if they don&#039;t think they can, then leave it at that and don&#039;t try to make them do their best and give it a shot anyway, because they&#039;ll fail.

Regarding the sketches:   Yeah, the Unabomber one is horrible.   


The one of David Berkowitz looks somewhat similar when next to each other, but it does not look enough that I&#039;d recognize it if I knew someone who looked like him.   He has a distinctive chin and so does the sketch, but distinctive in completely the wrong way.  If they added more shadow to the chin, maybe.  The sketch is pointy and his is very broad and strong.  

The one of Gary Ridgeway does look a bit like him, but it looks very very generic, so it could be almost any white male.  It looks a lot younger than him.  I&#039;d say that one is a failure.

These are definitely over-used, but I think sometimes it&#039;s a temptation to try to use whatever they have, when they have very little.  They&#039;re trying to push the description as far as they can for lack of any other lead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the best writeups I&#8217;ve seen on the pros and cons or composite sketches and facial reconstructions.   They actually have done some studies, and it is very iffy.   They help in some circumstances, but there are many where they clearly do not and they also can skew the memory, even of the person whose description creates them!</p>
<p>One thing I remember hearing about them is that if the person who is being interviewed says that they are able to help make a sketch, then they usually can, but if the person says they didn&#8217;t get a good look or they&#8217;re not sure if they could, they will ask them to try to do their best anyway, and these almost always come out horribly.   So the moral is that if someone says they can, let them, but if they don&#8217;t think they can, then leave it at that and don&#8217;t try to make them do their best and give it a shot anyway, because they&#8217;ll fail.</p>
<p>Regarding the sketches:   Yeah, the Unabomber one is horrible.   </p>
<p>The one of David Berkowitz looks somewhat similar when next to each other, but it does not look enough that I&#8217;d recognize it if I knew someone who looked like him.   He has a distinctive chin and so does the sketch, but distinctive in completely the wrong way.  If they added more shadow to the chin, maybe.  The sketch is pointy and his is very broad and strong.  </p>
<p>The one of Gary Ridgeway does look a bit like him, but it looks very very generic, so it could be almost any white male.  It looks a lot younger than him.  I&#8217;d say that one is a failure.</p>
<p>These are definitely over-used, but I think sometimes it&#8217;s a temptation to try to use whatever they have, when they have very little.  They&#8217;re trying to push the description as far as they can for lack of any other lead.</p>
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		<title>By: drbuzz0</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-19477</link>
		<dc:creator>drbuzz0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 07:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-19477</guid>
		<description>Yeah, well I&#039;ve seen several program outputs for facial composites and that one is by far the worst thing I&#039;ve ever seen.  Creepy too..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, well I&#8217;ve seen several program outputs for facial composites and that one is by far the worst thing I&#8217;ve ever seen.  Creepy too..</p>
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		<title>By: WhatTheHuh</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-19473</link>
		<dc:creator>WhatTheHuh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 04:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-19473</guid>
		<description>im sorry, but i think this new composite program makes the subjects look like mr.potatohead:  unrealistic, and so disturbing in many cases, that you dont even pay attention to what the person is supposed to look like, only that it is freakishly odd.  i think that if they used the photos to work from, and made a more comprehensive and cohesive actual drawing/sketch, it might work.  but piecing together something that doesn&#039;t flow becomes nothing more than a distraction.  check out this pic:

http://tyleryoungjj.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/ul_rapesuspectz.jpg

i can&#039;t imagine that anyone LOOKS like this, and that anyone would even recognize the suspect.  all it made me do was laugh out loud!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>im sorry, but i think this new composite program makes the subjects look like mr.potatohead:  unrealistic, and so disturbing in many cases, that you dont even pay attention to what the person is supposed to look like, only that it is freakishly odd.  i think that if they used the photos to work from, and made a more comprehensive and cohesive actual drawing/sketch, it might work.  but piecing together something that doesn&#8217;t flow becomes nothing more than a distraction.  check out this pic:</p>
<p><a href="http://tyleryoungjj.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/ul_rapesuspectz.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://tyleryoungjj.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/ul_rapesuspectz.jpg</a></p>
<p>i can&#8217;t imagine that anyone LOOKS like this, and that anyone would even recognize the suspect.  all it made me do was laugh out loud!!</p>
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		<title>By: Guru Goo</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-14441</link>
		<dc:creator>Guru Goo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 03:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-14441</guid>
		<description>Crime investigation is full of old wives tales and bad science.   It&#039;s not that it is all bad, because some of the forensic sciences are very well tested and highly accurate, but there are things like facial composites that are just pseudoscience.   Another one is criminal profiling which gets a lot of attention but has yet to actually prove itself as a useful tool.   Another big one is the polygraph or &#039;lie detector&#039; which is horribly unreliable.   There have been investigators who have ruled out a suspect because of a polygraph that they passed and then much later on found out they were really the guilty one all along,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crime investigation is full of old wives tales and bad science.   It&#8217;s not that it is all bad, because some of the forensic sciences are very well tested and highly accurate, but there are things like facial composites that are just pseudoscience.   Another one is criminal profiling which gets a lot of attention but has yet to actually prove itself as a useful tool.   Another big one is the polygraph or &#8216;lie detector&#8217; which is horribly unreliable.   There have been investigators who have ruled out a suspect because of a polygraph that they passed and then much later on found out they were really the guilty one all along,</p>
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		<title>By: DV82XL</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-14439</link>
		<dc:creator>DV82XL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-14439</guid>
		<description>[quote comment=&quot;14436&quot;]To be fair shouldn&#039;t you do with without a picture of any kind and try to do it from memory? I think even for an artist that would be difficult because it&#039;s not just an issue of being able to draw or paint well but to recall the features from memory and produce it on demand. If it were easy to do then artists would not require models to pose.[/quote]

The point here Q is that if I cannot do it from a picture such that it is recognizable to the people close to the subject, what does that say about anything I could do from memory, particularly if it was a stranger seen only for a few moments under possibly stressful conditions?

In fact I believe that after I told them who the subject of the sketch was any resemblance they say they saw was superimposed by their subconscious minds on the picture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="quoter-wrap">
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/#comment-14436"><b>Q said:</b></a></p>
<blockquote cite="http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/#comment-14436"><p>
To be fair shouldn&#8217;t you do with without a picture of any kind and try to do it from memory? I think even for an artist that would be difficult because it&#8217;s not just an issue of being able to draw or paint well but to recall the features from memory and produce it on demand. If it were easy to do then artists would not require models to pose.</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p>The point here Q is that if I cannot do it from a picture such that it is recognizable to the people close to the subject, what does that say about anything I could do from memory, particularly if it was a stranger seen only for a few moments under possibly stressful conditions?</p>
<p>In fact I believe that after I told them who the subject of the sketch was any resemblance they say they saw was superimposed by their subconscious minds on the picture.</p>
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		<title>By: Q</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-14436</link>
		<dc:creator>Q</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-14436</guid>
		<description>To be fair shouldn&#039;t you do with without a picture of any kind and try to do it from memory?    I think even for an artist that would be difficult because it&#039;s not just an issue of being able to draw or paint well but to recall the features from memory and produce it on demand.   If it were easy to do then artists would not require models to pose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be fair shouldn&#8217;t you do with without a picture of any kind and try to do it from memory?    I think even for an artist that would be difficult because it&#8217;s not just an issue of being able to draw or paint well but to recall the features from memory and produce it on demand.   If it were easy to do then artists would not require models to pose.</p>
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		<title>By: DV82XL</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-14433</link>
		<dc:creator>DV82XL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:10:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-14433</guid>
		<description>Although I am willing to admit to being below average in this skill, I tried an experiment last night which tells me how poor these might be.

Working with my son&#039;s 8X11 graduation picture, which is on the wall in my office about a meter away, I made a composite from the website that the Giant Pulsating Brain posted. After several hours of work, and when I was reasonably satisfied with the result, I mailed it to him, his sister, and my wife (his mother).

None of them could name the subject, the closest was my son himself who said it looked like a mix of several of his cousins. However once I told them who the subject was they could all see the resemblance. 

My wife helpfully suggested that I not attempt to pursue a late career change to the Arts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I am willing to admit to being below average in this skill, I tried an experiment last night which tells me how poor these might be.</p>
<p>Working with my son&#8217;s 8X11 graduation picture, which is on the wall in my office about a meter away, I made a composite from the website that the Giant Pulsating Brain posted. After several hours of work, and when I was reasonably satisfied with the result, I mailed it to him, his sister, and my wife (his mother).</p>
<p>None of them could name the subject, the closest was my son himself who said it looked like a mix of several of his cousins. However once I told them who the subject was they could all see the resemblance. </p>
<p>My wife helpfully suggested that I not attempt to pursue a late career change to the Arts.</p>
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		<title>By: CtrlAltDel</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-14432</link>
		<dc:creator>CtrlAltDel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-14432</guid>
		<description>I can easily see how going through all those features would confuse and ruin any memory you had to begin with.   It&#039;s like having someone yell numbers when you&#039;re trying to count.   It&#039;s very confusing.   I&#039;m amazed that the process ever works at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can easily see how going through all those features would confuse and ruin any memory you had to begin with.   It&#8217;s like having someone yell numbers when you&#8217;re trying to count.   It&#8217;s very confusing.   I&#8217;m amazed that the process ever works at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Giant Pulsating Brain</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-14426</link>
		<dc:creator>Giant Pulsating Brain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 03:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-14426</guid>
		<description>Here is a link to one a rudimentary face feature thing that you can use to make a composite sketch

http://flashface.ctapt.de/

It&#039;s only a basic one, but just try to make one of someone you know well and do it without a photograph to view.  Do it just from memory.  It&#039;s really really hard!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a link to one a rudimentary face feature thing that you can use to make a composite sketch</p>
<p><a href="http://flashface.ctapt.de/" rel="nofollow">http://flashface.ctapt.de/</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s only a basic one, but just try to make one of someone you know well and do it without a photograph to view.  Do it just from memory.  It&#8217;s really really hard!</p>
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		<title>By: Giant Pulsating Brain</title>
		<link>http://depletedcranium.com/how-useful-are-composite-sketches/comment-page-1/#comment-14425</link>
		<dc:creator>Giant Pulsating Brain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 03:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://depletedcranium.com/?p=1574#comment-14425</guid>
		<description>I tried fooling around with an online composite face generator that you can do like the simple identify-kit.   Even faces I know very well and would recognize, it&#039;s damn hard.   It&#039;s funny how the brain works, but the thing that is so weird is I can see a face in my head but when I try to break it down to the features and see just the nose or something, it gets very confusing.    I couldn&#039;t even make a descent composite of my girlfriend or my brother or some friends I&#039;ve had for a long time.   It&#039;s funny because I know their face so well and all the features that I&#039;d never be fooled by a look-alike or anything but I just can&#039;t translate it from thought to paper.

I agree that the most useful descriptions would be traits that are not visual but are kinda binary in nature.  Like a person either has a scar or doesn&#039;t and they either have red hair or black hair.   I guess you could make some distinctions there that there are times when dirty blond and light brown blend together or times when a dark skinned caucasion can look latino or arab but I mean in general, those are the ones that I&#039;d consider more reliable, the ones that are not visual to remember but are a fixed variable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried fooling around with an online composite face generator that you can do like the simple identify-kit.   Even faces I know very well and would recognize, it&#8217;s damn hard.   It&#8217;s funny how the brain works, but the thing that is so weird is I can see a face in my head but when I try to break it down to the features and see just the nose or something, it gets very confusing.    I couldn&#8217;t even make a descent composite of my girlfriend or my brother or some friends I&#8217;ve had for a long time.   It&#8217;s funny because I know their face so well and all the features that I&#8217;d never be fooled by a look-alike or anything but I just can&#8217;t translate it from thought to paper.</p>
<p>I agree that the most useful descriptions would be traits that are not visual but are kinda binary in nature.  Like a person either has a scar or doesn&#8217;t and they either have red hair or black hair.   I guess you could make some distinctions there that there are times when dirty blond and light brown blend together or times when a dark skinned caucasion can look latino or arab but I mean in general, those are the ones that I&#8217;d consider more reliable, the ones that are not visual to remember but are a fixed variable.</p>
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