Canadian “Naturopath” Faces Manslaughter Charges
October 18th, 2008
|
| Share |
I really hope she gets the book thrown at her. (Although I don’t think she will.)
A Westmount practitioner of homeopathy and naturopathy has been released on bail under a host of conditions after pleading not guilty to charges in connection with the death of one of her patients.
50-year-old Mitra Javanmardi smiled brightly at her lawyers and her family members in the courtroom, the petite woman with frizzy black hair wearing a brown jacket and ruffled white blouse, her hands cuffed.
The naturopath is accused of criminal negligence causing death and manslaughter. An 84-year-old patient of hers died of a heart attack last June the day after getting a mineral treatment through an intravenous injection at her office in Westmount.
“This case will be very, very vigourously contested,” says her lawyer Julius Grey.
Crown prosecutor Hélène di Salvo agreed to her release, outlining a dozen conditions forbidding the accused from administering injections, prescribing medications or any other practices reserved for doctors.
“The fact that she’s not allowed to do what she used to do is for the protection of the public. And I hope the public will know what they cannot do, the naturopath, because they are not doctors and that’s important.”
he case returns to court next month.
The first thing that stands out here to me is the fact that she “smiled brightly” in the court session. While I don’t know all the details of this case, the gal of this woman is astounding. Perhaps she considers herself innocent, but a person is dead and that should be at make the occasion somber. Yes, the person was elderly, but someone has lost their father, grandfather, great uncle, friend or otherwise. It is the height of self-centered unprofessional and disrespectful conduct to see this as an event to be beaming about.
(The image to the right is not from the court session, however. It is a cached image from her facebook profile which was recently taken down.)
If a patient dies because a doctor makes a mistake, then that is malpractice and can result in dicplinary actions and lawsuits. If the doctor knew that the treatment given was not safe or was not properly prepared to give the treatment, then that can rise to the level of criminal manslaughter. For example, if a doctor offers to perform surgury on a patient, but has never preformed the kind of surgury in question and does not have the proper facilities to do so and the patient dies as a result of this, then the doctor can be prosecuted. Also, if the doctor were to use equipment that was known to be defecient or was not certified for such use, prosecution for manslaughter would also be a possibility.
This is not just limited to doctors, however. If, for example, a person offers their services repairing elevators heating systems, but neglects to mention they are not certified to do so and have no clue what they are doing, and this results in a family dying of carbon monoxide poisoning becasue the person ventilated the furnace wrong, they too can be charged in manslaughter. So too could a certified heating contractor who knew how to do the job properly but cut corners. In both cases, criminal negligence exists. In one case because the individual knew they were not capable of safely doing the job and in the other because they knew the way the job was done was not safe and proper.
Makes sense, right? When the life of someone is in the hands of a health care professional, or for that matter anyone, they should be expected NOT to do anything that they know could kill that person. It’s expected that people should be held accountable for their wrongful actions and recklessness that causes death.
Yet here we have a “naturopath” who was doing something as serious as giving Intravenous medication, something which should NEVER be done by a person who does not have the proper medical background and she is all smiles and expects to get off. In this case, the treatment, which was only reported to be “minerals” apparently overwhelmed the man’s heart and lead directly to his death, at least according to autopsy reports.
Personally, I find this just sickening. While there are sites out there trying to convince people not to vaccinate their kids because of one isolated instance of a bad reaction, the same camp will be the first to scream that this woman is being persecuted for giving someone an unnecessary and useless treatment that lead to his death. These “alternative” practicioners, however, have gotten the role of playing the victim down to an art.
Had a doctor been treating this person they would have known better than to juice him up with “minerals” and would have taken the responsibility to monitor his cardiac state during ANY treatment.
This is the definition of wrecklessness. To invite people into a buisiness, assuring them that you know what you’re doing and will care for their health safely and then giving them something that leads to their death. She belongs behind bars.
Note: I’m not singling out Canada in any way over this incident. The unfortunate situation is that this kind of crap happens in Canada, the United States, the UK, India, Australia and numerous other places. Quacks dispensing snakeoil and then all too often weaseling out of charges when it all hits the fan is all too common and is an international problem.
This entry was posted on Saturday, October 18th, 2008 at 9:50 pm and is filed under Bad Science, Quackery. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
View blog reactions
October 19th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Joseph said:
Well you’re making me feel like puking, so maybe that’s the problem she had too?
But seriously, this is all a common tactic by the pro-quack lobby. You’re basically saying that quackery is justified by the fact that hospitals and the medical system are not perfect and do not provide the degree of care and individual diagnosis that they should. Fine, I agree that the medical system in most places has its problems with mountains of paperwork, getting bounced from place to place, doctors who don’t have the time to do a good evaluation etc etc etc. That means that the system needs improvement. It does not justify replacing it with a voodoo quack system.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Dear Sir,
I’m not one to accredit my time to responding to the narrow minded, or rather, the blind percentage of the population… nevertheless one can hypothesize all one wants on circumstances yet unclear. A gentleman of 84 years of age seeking naturopathic relief implies to me that he has not found the cure he seeks for his ailment and is simply taken the logical approach in seeking help in the traditional medical field that has existed since civilization created it. This modern alternative method of hospitals, and university accredited doctors is infinitely lacking in its’ ability to diagnose and treat the population. To give sole responsibility for this to Health Canada is in itself, a criminal act. Universities do produce many specialists in the field of healthcare and I applaud their efforts sincerely, but nevertheless, many are simply mechanics and/or pushers for the greed driven pharmaceutical industry.
It is also difficult to comprehend that a crown prosecutor would have any clue on how to administer judgment in a situation as this. She/he are probably blind to the situation and can only relate to the closed mindedness of our judicial dictators which are becoming increasingly fascist in their efforts to control the environment which we all share.
My sympathies to the deceased, his family and his caregiver.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
With supporters of alternative therapies, when you point out a problem with the evidence, people don’t engage with you about it, or provide references. They get into a huff. They refuse to answer ligitimate queries. They wave their hands and mutter about conspiracy. They accuse you of being a paid shill for big pharma. They threaten to sue you. They shout, “What about thalidomide, science boy?”, they cry witch hunt, they call you names. They declare that the “system” is biased against them, that it isn’t equipped to judge them. But never, never, never do they supply hard evidence.
Pushed to do so they break-off discussion, calling everyone else narrow minded, or blind.
Surely you didn’t think you could come to a skeptic’s website with a couple of personal anecdotes and be taken seriously?
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
George said:
This is the common argument that comes up. The fact that medicine cannot always treat a condition and cure it 100% of the time people claim is some kind of failure that disproves legitimate medicine and shows naturopaths are the way to go.
It’s been noted here that some diseases are just not curable and sometimes doctors can’t be of much help, for example with terminal cancer. That’s just reality. Quacks can tell you they can cure anything because they don’t deal with reality (they lie).
Now look, if you really dislike the Canadian medical system so much and are willing to pay out of pocket you can always go to the US and I do know people who have done so. This gentleman was in Montreal. If it were true that the system in Canada were totally incapable of dealing with health care (which is not the case. Yes, it has its issues but it’s not a completely incompetent system) then he could easily go to Albany or Buffalo or Rutland and pay for something that is not even controlled by Canada.
He didn’t. He bought into the lies of quack and now he is dead. This happens all over. It happens in the US, Canada and especially in India and places like that. Anywhere where you have dishonest people trying to make money and poor suckers willing to listen to them this happens. It’s not a Canadian problem, it is a worldwide problem and all countries need to fight it.
George said:
So what if the prosecutor does not know all the details? It’s not the prosecutors job to do all the science related work in these kind of cases. That is why they have medical examiners who are well trained pathologists and why they go to expert witnesses who do understand this and can give a very good explanation.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
The comments on this blog are very disturbing to me. It would appear that you are using people you know personally nothing about to fuel your own particular angry personal agenda. Please express your opinions without demonizing individuals with your own prejudices. In my opinion this is an ignorant mob mentality and not a mentality worthy of anyone adopting.
The journalist wrote that the accused smiled brightly at her children and even that is turned against her. She is a single mother who smiled at her very scared and worried school aged children. Let me assure you this lady (from a family of people dedicated to health and medicine) has graduated and trained in both traditional medical school as well as natureopathic and homeopathic schools. She has served patients for near thirty years. She is certainly not a snake oil quack trying to scam the public. The real snake oil salesmen are perhaps the prosecutors who at the core are using her to promote themselves and Quebec politics.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Joseph, as a father myself, let me first offer my sympathies for having gone though that ordeal. Having one’s child be ill and not being able to find a cure for a long time is always a terrible thing to suffer. And I am happy for you she’s better.
That said…
Your story is what is called “anecdotal evidence”. You tell a story about one instance where someone happened to become better after a certain treatment failed, and you started another one. This kind of story holds no evidence at all for the alternative method’s efficacy.
None at all…
Zero…
Zilch…
Nada.
By comparison: when I did my military service, one guy in my platoon refused to wear a seatbelt when we were driving. His rationale was that one of his relatives had been in an accident and someone had said “If they had had the seatbelt on, they might possibly have died”. This anecdote he saw as “evidence” that seatbelts kill. But he was completely ignoring the overwhelming amounts of cases where seatbelts saved lives. This is why anecdotal evidence is useless.
Fact is you don’t know why she became better. The reason doesn’t have to be the alternative method at all. The illness may have self-terminated… 85% of all ailments do. Maybe it was just time. Maybe something else happened during the time you started with the alternative… a change of habits… a change of venue. Fact is that you cannot say with any kind of certainty that it was the naturist treatment that made her better.
Conventional medicine may not be perfect… but it does rely on scientifically proven methods. Further more conventional medicine has a strict ethos not to do experiments with patients… nor to use methods for which you are not trained… nor to use methods that have not been proven in a scientifically rigorous manner to be as safe and effective.
Naturists, homeopaths and the likes do not have that kind of ethics. Their practices are not based in science but rather blind faith, in some cases even on pure ignorance. Your daughter got better, good for you, but she might as well have died… as did the man in this story.
It’s not a witchhunt. The autopsy shows the man died as a direct result of the naturist’s dealings. The only reason you are saying it’s a witchhunt, in direct conradiction of known facts, is because you want the naturist method to be valid… because if it isn’t, you’ll have to admit you put your daughter in grave danger by making her go see a quack. No father wants to have to admit that. You have a very strong vested interrest in believeing in naturistic methods, which affects your judgement.
But you cannot escape the fact that methods such as this are not validated to be safe, nor effective. In fact, most evidence speak for the opposite. I’m sorry… but your faith in this is very misplaced.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Oh… let me add one more thing.
Joseph… now that you have been in a situation where you are depserate, you know very well that hopelessness makes people try any chance that is given. Naturists and homeopaths take advantage of this. Knowing that if nothing else seems to work, people will try anything… and from this comes the big bucks that keep homeopaths and similar in business. They are using people’s desperation to stiff them of their money, at the expense of their safety and, as is shown in this case, even their lives.
This demonstrates the urgency with which quackery must be combated.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
justice said:
I live in Montreal, Quebec so don’t tell me what or what not I can say about what is going on in the courts here, Nor is this a matter of political grandstanding. If you know anything about the political climate in Quebec, you know that this could not be the case, in fact more likely the opposite. Nor do I need you to instruct me on what opinions I have on the subject of ‘alternative medicine’ and its practitioners.
This woman is not qualified to practice medicine in this Provence, evidence shows that there is probable cause for the charge of manslaughter and the Crown acted as it should by arraigning her on the advice of the coroner office. The fact that she has retained a barrister known for defending some of the worst criminals in this city, rather than a specialist in malpractice, is telling.
This is not the first time we have dealt with this subject here. Many supporters and practitioners of ‘alternative medicine’ and all have had a chance to show proof of these ideas that hold up to basic scientific scrutiny. None have done so. So you will excuse us if we don’t extend the benefit of doubt to this woman.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Your smug, arrogant rabid response to my comment shows that there can be no profitable discourse. If you seek to twist everything to further you own passionate view and prejudgments you will not get at any truths. I merely asked that you express your opinions regarding health care without demonizing people whom you do not know. Do not join the mob. I clearly showed you how you had done this by referring to the accused as having “gall” for brightly smiling at her children while being in handcuffs and spending a night in a detention center. You are outraged for her trying to reassure her worried and scared school aged children that she is ok.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
justice said:
The smiling thing is just insult to injury. It’s really not the thing that I am most bothered by. It’s the fact that she killed another human being through the dispensing of fraudulent witch-doctor remedies that have no known benefits and are provided in a dangerous manner without the proper safeguards that gets me.
It’s the same as seeing a drunk driver smiling at a trial after killing a whole family. The fact that the driver is smiling is irritating, even enraging, but really it’s just a case of spitting in the eye of the victims. The true reason for being angry is not the fact that she’s smug. It’s the fact that she’s a killer.
Oh sorry… “Alleged killer.”
The fact that a person who could possibly have had several more years of life and times with family and friends but is instead in the ground decomposing is not that small of a matter.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
justice said:
You haven’t seen me rabid yet, and as for arrogant, who the Hell are you to instruct me on how I should think, or what opinions I should express, and how? I know the truth about alternate medicine, the courts will determine culpability. That is the only open question here. I have been attacking this type of quackery for a very long time, and I have looked at the facts, and I have given the other side a chance to prove their claims and I have never seen or been presented with anything in the way of evidence that stood up to basic scientific scrutiny.
But you are right at least in one thing; there can be no profitable discourse, because you, and everyone else that supports this type of garbage is incapable of rational, critical thought.
Quote Comment
October 19th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Joseph said:
My sympathies to your wife and daughter. Many, many of my friends have been through bizarre gastrointestinal problems that took a very long time to diagnose — including one woman who suffered from something very similar to cyclic vomiting syndrome, which finally turned out to be adult pyloric stenosis, something that most gastroenterologists have never even heard of because it’s so rare.
Has your wife had an antibody test or a genetic test done? The anti-tTG antibody test (a simple blood test) is extremely accurate with respect to celiac sprue, and a total serum immunoglobulin A (IgA) test should be done as well. If she’s not currently suffering from any symptoms, a human leukocyte antigen (HLA) genetic test would be wise, as it will detect the alleles which are responsible for the problems even if she is not currently producing any antibodies.
I’m glad your wife is doing better, but I encourage you to have these non-invasive tests done anyway in order to narrow down what’s actually going on. Did your naturopath inform you that celiac disease is not the only form of wheat / gluten allergy? It’s certainly the best known, but people can also be allergic to albumins, globulins, prolamins (aka gliadins) or glutelins (aka glutenins), all of which are proteins found in wheat. She could even be allergic to aspergillus amylase, a protein added to wheat which helps in baking. These proteins interact with immunoglobulin E (IgE) rather than IgA in sensitive persons, so the celiac tests will actually come up negative if the problem has to do with one of these other proteins.
I don’t know if genetic tests have been developed to detect the non-celiac forms of wheat allergy, but any competent allergist should be able to tell you more. (I’m just a lowly bioinformaticist.)
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Now wait a second here, I want to ask something of all the supporters of the naturopath. If a person dies as the result of the actions of an MD there will be an investigation and if it turns out they were badly negligent then they could be charged with death. Why should naturopathic practicioners be held to a lesser standard and get a pass to do this kind of thing?
If it turns out she was not to blame then let the court decide, but they must have had enough evidence to at least get an warrant.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Nobody can really know what is the real issue in this case. The practice of parenteral management or the smiling face of the practitioner or the role she played. The truth will set you free.
In my opinion, everyone has destiny as when should we go . When it come to health management either way conventional medical way or naturopathic way both has limitations. It is about time to integrate both management. There are lot of management blunders that occur conventional management but they are not being dealt with well. If ,we are truly aiming towards health management as what both conventiona and naturopathic medicine are proclaimingp the time is here to start this program.
Canada has financial capacity and can use the medical budget sensibly if both medicine are integrated. It is just the lure of pharmaceutical is irresistible. Let us collaborate for healthy community. Most of all every health consumer has the duty to be educating themselves about their body.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Marilyn J. Yap-Yu said:
The issue in this case is crystal clear: there is a corps that the coroner has determined died as result of treatment administered by Javanmardi. The Crown has arraigned her on charges of criminal negligence. Those are the facts.
Canada has little enough money for medical care as it is, the medicare system is straining to provide services, and the last thing we need is funds being spent on witchdoctors.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Why does the link of the autopsy report not work? It’s just too easy to say here this autopsy proves it. Minerals don’t seem to be something that would cause a heart attack although someone could easily “say” it did and most people wouldn’t question it. I hope they give her a fair chance and all the facts are looked at, and that people don’t let their fears or prejudices interfere. Like what else did he do that day, his age etc…
If their intention was to really protect the people and do something good, they’d put their efforts on cleaning up the hospitals in Quebec, lining up cases of neglect etc… and getting the funding to restore the proper care for people. This sounds like just people’s fears to me.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Joseph,
My sympathies are with you, but because the medical establishment is not very good at rooting out fraud and incompetence, does that not mean that we should be *more* vigilant, not less? The very same fundamental problems which led to your wife and your daughter having so much difficulty getting proper diagnosis are why we cannot allow naturopaths to act outside of their expertise. There is simply too much at stake to waste time in a foolish “doctors are worse/alties are worse” debate. Frankly, I don’t think doctors and alternative health practitioners should be treated any differently at all. We should hold them all to the same high standards of evidence and ethics, because lives are at stake.
There is celiac sprue in my family. You should consult a physician specializing in such things to make sure this is actually what your wife was suffering from. Celiac sprue does not go away; if your wife can really handle gluten now, she may have had something different. Or, if she still has celiac sprue, she may have another episode in the future, and it would be good to know if you need to be careful about it. The other reason to find out is because celiac sprue is a genetic disorder. It is a recessive trait, so both parents need to carry it, and your daughter could also be carrying the gene. It would be good for her to know whether to be on the lookout for that in her children.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Regarding the original post, we should be careful about assuming that anyone who supports naturopaths is a militant anti-vaxxer. Many anti-vaxxers are supporters of alternative medicine, and many supporters of alternative medicine are anti-vax. But it’s not a 100% association. If we are going to uphold critical thinking, I think we need to be careful not to build up any strawman arguments. We should have plenty of reasons to attack the use of dangerous medical therapies by those who don’t know the dangers of these therapies. We can save the attack on perceived hypocrisy for the occasions when we actually see such hypocrisy in action. One doesn’t need to wait long; just wait for Jenny McCarthy’s next public appearance, and there should be material aplenty.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Nadia said:
That is why culpability will be determined by trial in a court of law. Despite your insinuations to the contrary, Quebec is not a Banana Republic; she will get a fair trial.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Nadia said:
The link is to the news article, as opposed to the autopsy report, and it works just fine. It strikes me that an autopsy report would be a fairly technical document anyway and the layman would be hard pressed to interpret it. If this is not the case I’m very happy to be corrected.
As to the power of “minerals” to cause a heart attack. It’s kind of like saying that “Automobiles can transport 60 people” some (buses) can, others (pretty much anything else) generally can’t. If a coroner says minerals caused the heart attack then those of us who aren’t coroners assigned to this case have to take the report as accurate.
The validity and accuracy of the report will, I’m sure, be thoroughly tested by the defense case. Attempting to find flaws here in the outside world will not assist anyone.
The facts about this particular case are really probably best left to the court to nut out. The facts about homeopathy and naturopathy in general are where this debate is truly rooted and aside from a small amount of anecdotal evidence we don’t see a lot here that really supports these practices. Strike that, we don’t see any.
Instead of emotional descriptions of health systems in crisis and individual accounts of homeopathic success post a link to the conclusive study showing the verifiable, repeatable effects of alternative medicine on a large sample size, published in a peer reviewed scientific journal, preferably a medical journal, and I’m sure we’ll all be willing to give it a serious read and maybe even change our tune.
Ball’s in your court alternative-med people.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 11:55 am
I suspect that the actual autopsy report will not be released to the public until after the trial to avoid the risk of contaminating any potential jurors.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Ignorance is bliss! Too many chiefs not enough indians…. Learn more about this case in details before you speak/write!
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
bystander said:
There’s a dead body; there is a person who was treating him with intravenous infusion; there is an autopsy report in which a medical examiner found these treatments to be the cause of death; the coroner’s office handed the case to the Crown which pressed charges of manslaughter. The person charged entered a plea of not guilty; there will be a trial.
What facts are we not in command of here?
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Nadia said:
An IV could easily cause a heart attack if it simply overloaded the system with more fluid than it could handle and increased blood pressure. “Minerals” don’t tell us much about what was in the IV, but there certainly are minerals that could cause cardiac problems.
The coroner investigated this and the report concluded that the treatment was the direct cause of the heart attack that killed the individual. The court found this to be sufficient probable cause to indict the individual and move forward with a trial. If the medical examiner was incorrect with these findings or there are extenuating circumstances, she will have every opportunity to cross-examine the medical examiner or to call any witnesses to dispute the charges, to present evidence in defense etc etc etc.
As DV8 stated, we’re talking about a civilized western country here and one with all the standard rights of the accused and legal representation you’d expect. This is not an Islamic court in Syria or a mock-trial in North Korea. She will have every opportunity to dispute these charges to the judge and jury and if she looses by some fault of the system, she can appeal it.
You can’t get convicted in that kind of a system because someone just decided to “Say” why the person died from the minerals. There will need to be a detailed explanation and proof.
This may not all be avaliable as of yet, but it will be once it is presented in the trial. The defense will, of course, be able to scrutinize it.
Nadia said:
This is not an issue of fears. Someone is dead. If you want me to be 100% honest, then yes, I will admit that I have a fear of death. That’s generally considered healthy and it’s known as “self preservation.” I also don’t want those close to me to die if it can be avoided. Therefore, I prefer that society stops people from killing other people and punishes them when they do. Is that so unreasonable?
As for the quality of hospitals in Quebec. Honestly, I don’t know how they are. I’d have to guess there is probably some room for improvement because there almost always is in any system. Of course it’s a good thing to improve healthcare. That’s a complete strawman though. It has nothing to do with anything. That is like saying we should improve automobile safety rather than prosecute someone who plows their car into a crowed of people. The two are unrelated.
Prosecuting the guilty for law violations (such as killing someone) is the job of a prosecutor. Their job is not to go clean up a hospital. That would be like a district attorney saying “You know, I was going to prosecute this guy for gunning down a group of people, but I think I’ll let him go and instead I’ll volunteer some time to help in after school programs.” The two are unrelated and it’s a dumb and baseless argument.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
I would not qualify this by saying the person was 84 and had a weak heart or something like that. I mean, the life of an old person is not of any less worth or any more valid to be taken simply because you assume they would likely not have a lot of life left. My great uncle has had heart problems like palpitations since he had a heart attack when he was 79. He is now 94 and continues to have problems, but not so badly that he cannot still enjoy his life with his family and even traveling on occasion. A 20 year old could be hit by a car and killed tomorrow. So what if this guy was 84? He could have lived to 100 for all we know. She had no more right to kill him than anyone else.
Quote Comment
October 20th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Nadia: Hypercalcemia, hypermagnesia, and hyperkalemia can all cause cardiac arrest. (Excessive calcium, magnesium, and potassium, respectively.)
I wouldn’t be surprised to find that other mineral overdoses could also cause that effect, directly or indirectly.
“Minerals” are quite capable of causing rapid death from heart failure, either via cardiac arrythmia and arrest, or via edema.
Quote Comment
October 21st, 2008 at 8:50 pm
DV82XL said:
And if the original article had left it at that then none of the ensuing tit-for-tat would have occurred. But it wasn’t left there. She was accused of ”gall”, based on a reporters description of her smile. The accuser didn’t see the smile, they only read about it and made an assumption.
Then a photograph of the accused smiling was shown, even though it had no added value with regard to the article in question. The disclaimer that it was from another time and place does nothing to alleviate this.
Then she is cursed with guilt-by-association, in that her choice of law firm is also the choice of ”gangsters”. Sorry, this starts to sound like prejudice and fails to appear as an attempt to further rational and critical thought.
The tone of the original article (response to the news item) is holier-than-thou and indignant. What did anyone expect would happen?
Here’s my deal – I have no time for unscientific healing, and indeed hope for justice in this case. But please don’t mistake healthy skepticism for the right to hurl innuendo and accusations. Justice must be seen to be done
Quote Comment
October 21st, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Thank you Fueltank you have articulated my frustration as well with this blogger. Unfortunately you are running the likely chance this blogger fellow will completely ignore and disregard your point. He likes to twist things around and reiterate as like a tape recorder his smug and uninformed vitriol.
Quote Comment
October 21st, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Singling out Canada for this incident? I don’t think it reflects poorly on the country at all. Canada should be singled out for congratulations for taking a stand against this kind of thing. It’s not an insult but a compliment that they are taking these steps. I wish more countries would be more agressive in fighting quacks.
Quote Comment
October 21st, 2008 at 10:20 pm
fueltank said:
I don’t know where you live, but I do live in Montreal. The culture here is somewhat different than what most English-speaking people are used to. The media here isn’t particularly concerned with the concept of ‘politically correct,’ nor is anyone else, (including politicians for that matter) and this sort of reporting is par for the course.
Now having said that, I consider Mitra Javanmardi a criminal simply for pretending to cure people with homeopathy and naturopathy, which are fraudulent, ridiculous, and potentially dangerous practices. She has preyed on the sick and the weak selling them promises and giving them nothing substantial in return. This whole ‘alternative medicine’ problem has gotten completely out of hand, and while I do understand that it is difficult to deliver care to everyone at a reasonable cost, the solution to this cannot be to let unqualified people, jabbering nonsense fill the gaps.
The court will see to it she gets a fair trial in this matter as is required by Canadian constitutional law – I on the other hand am not bound to grant her the benefit of doubt or consider her innocent until proven guilty.
Quote Comment
October 21st, 2008 at 10:31 pm
justice said:
Just as an aside ‘justice’, we all know you are astroturfing here. If you are going to advocate for this woman, at least be man enough to do it directly rather than just fling insults and be indignant.
Quote Comment
October 21st, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Actually I already have made previous comments. You ignored my points and simply repeated your insults and innuendos. You have done it again and have attempted to turn everything around. I am so frustrated with you that I am done responding and paying attention to your tediousness. It would appear that you are a sort of proselytizer and really not much more.
Quote Comment
October 21st, 2008 at 11:12 pm
justice said:
No I am a skeptic and rationalist, which is what you should expect to find at a site like this, and you are a supporter of this quack.
Don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out
Quote Comment
October 23rd, 2008 at 11:42 pm
I knew Dr. Mitra Javandmardi professionally. You do not. So please stop your ranting because you do not know what you’re talking about. Just because here in Quebec naturopathic physicians, which is what Dr. Javanmardi was, are not allowed to call themselves DOCTORS, does not mean she was not qualified! She studied naturopathic medicine in Oregon and is not a quack. So, please before you just to any conclusion, do your homework.
Quote Comment
October 24th, 2008 at 12:13 am
Jane Doe said:
She IS NOT A DOCTOR, because that title is reserved in this Provence to those the Law allows to practice medicine. I don’t give a damn where she ‘trained’ the government of Quebec decides who who is qualified in medicine in Quebec, not some institute we do not recognize in Oregon. She cannot arrogate herself this title because she feels like it.
We are going to drive all of these quacks out of Quebec by making it too expensive to practice here, I hope other jurisdictions do the same.
Quote Comment
October 24th, 2008 at 1:22 am
Jane Doe said:
To call yourself a “doctor” usually you need to actually be one. That generally means having a Ph.D. or an MD or a DDS or something. There’s another restriction on it too and that is that you are not allowed to call yourself a doctor in a medical context without having a medical doctorate and a license to practice medicine.
So for example, If someone had a Ph.D. in economics and they opened an office that said “Doctor Smith, General Practitioner” then that would be fraud and practicing medicine without a license. Even if they could use the title doctor legitimately, in that case they’re using it to imply something that is not true: That they are qualified to practice medicine.
She’s not a medical doctor because she went to some naturalistic institute. She would need to have gone to a recognized med school and to have all the correct accreditation to be a doctor. Usually that’s a degree, a medical license and a board certification.
She has none of these. She’s not a doctor.
Getting all these qualifications is hard work. It is for good reason. There must be certainty that you are well qualified when you are going to be dealing with the health of others like that.
Quote Comment
June 29th, 2009 at 11:53 am
REBUTTLE; I’m not saying this person should get away with anything if something was done due to negligence, after all, people make mistakes. However, lets be realistic by being aware of the BIG BIG PICTURE FOLKS… LETS LOOK AT THE FACTS, AND DO A COMPARISON. From 1990 to 2000 in the United states alone, synthetic pharmaceuticals killed more people than the US military, car accidents, police and civilian firearms, and terrorism, (excluding 9/11) combined, with a death toll of 7.8 million people. THESE WERE PROPERLY PERSCRIBED DRUGS, TAKEN AS DIRECTED. Meanwhile, the top ten big pharma companies earned more profits than the top 490 corporations in the fortune 500 combined. Do you know, only 5% of patients must gain a benefit from a drug in order to be granted a licence to manufacture it? Why don’t we know? It isn’t reported in the media for some reason…gee, could it have something to do with the advertising dollars spent ? There are many expenses in medicine and research I won’t get into here. Do you know that 10% of all school children have used Ritalin , costing 28 million in 2007 in the USA only !
TIME TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK PEOPLE, CAUSE THE TRUTH IS HARD TO FIND. Research CODEX ALIMENTARIUS AND GET READY FOR A SHOCK ABOUT WHAT’S COMING. This is a process of GRADUALISM. Food labelling hosted by Canada. Did you know that organic food production is 30% more cost effective and far healthier than mass farming in commercial operations using genetically modified foods, yet this kind of farming has 3 times the land being taken than for organic methods. Not 1 person in 1,000 understands the energy cost for globalization of the food chain and how interdependent our system is, making it subject to breakdown. What about the growing fines until you are bankrupt as a nation, because you won’t allow Texas beef, injected with Monsanto growth hormone into Canada? Gee…guess why everyone in Texas is so big? When the food war begins, you won’t even be able to farm your own food or buy worthwhile vitamins & minerals. Look up Napoleonic law ! Look up the background of I.G.Farben, BASF, or BAYER for some more shocks.
Organic food and natural health care are going to becom illegal. CODEX has 27 comittee’s covering the entire food chain. Could you last more than 30 days without going to the grocery store?
If someone hurts their patient deliberately, yes, they need correction so they will DO NO HARM. DOES ANYONE KNOW IF DOCTORS STILL HAVE THE HIPOCRATIC OATH?
Quote Comment
June 29th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
AN OPINION, from one who grew up in Quebec. I’m not saying this person should get away with anything if something was done due to negligence, and of course after all, people make honest mistakes too, but the court system must decide. However, lets be realistic by being aware of the BIG BIG PICTURE FOLKS… LETS LOOK AT THE FACTS, I think my research is correct, AND DO A COMPARISON. From 1990 to 2000 in the United states alone, synthetic pharmaceuticals killed more people than the US military, car accidents, police and civilian firearms, and terrorism, (excluding 9/11) combined, with a death toll of 7.8 million people. THESE WERE PROPERLY PERSCRIBED DRUGS, TAKEN AS DIRECTED. Insurance is expensive for doctors in the US. Meanwhile, the top ten big pharma companies earned more profits than the top 490 corporations in the fortune 500 . Do you know, only 5% of patients must gain a benefit from a drug in order to be granted a licence to manufacture it? Why don’t we know? It isn’t reported in the media for some reason…gee, could it have something to do with the advertising dollars spent ? There are many expenses in medicine and research I won’t get into here. Do you know that 10% of all school children have used Ritalin , costing 28 million in 2007 in the USA only !
TIME TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK PEOPLE, CAUSE THE TRUTH IS HARD TO FIND. There is an important issue here that calls for a widening of the discussion. IF YOU CARE !!! Research CODEX ALIMENTARIUS AND GET READY FOR A SHOCK ABOUT WHAT’S COMING. This is a process of GRADUALISM. Organic food and natural health care are going to becom illegal. Food labelling hosted by Canada. wELL, LABELS WILL BE LESS INFORMATIVE. We all know the saying, prevention is worth a pound of cure. Health care costs are skyrocketing as we all age. We have a shortage of doctors in Canada. Did you know that organic food production is 30% more cost effective and far healthier than mass farming in commercial operations using genetically modified foods, yet this kind of farming has 3 times the land being taken than for organic methods. Not 1 person in 1,000 understands the energy cost for globalization of the food chain and how interdependent our system is, making it subject to breakdown. What about the growing fines until you are bankrupt as a nation, because you won’t allow Texas beef, injected with Monsanto growth hormone into Canada, JUST LIKE IN EUROPE ? Gee…guess why everyone in Texas is so big? When the food war begins due to the coming depression, you won’t even be able to farm your own food or buy worthwhile vitamins & minerals. Look up Napoleonic law ! Look up the background of I.G.Farben, BASF, or BAYER for some more shocks.
CODEX has 27 comittee’s covering the entire food chain. Could you last more than 30 days without going to the grocery store?
If someone hurts their patient deliberately, yes, they need correction so they will DO NO HARM. DOES ANYONE KNOW IF DOCTORS STILL HAVE THE HIPOCRATIC OATH? Cause the W.H.O. and the W.T.O. is going to do us all a lot of harm. You have our spineless politicans for that, they call it the Security & prosperity partnership plan….actually, public outcry forced them to change the name of U.N. laws that will force these things on us. Now this is called the TRIUMVERATE How many know what that is? Just needed to help my fello Quebecers & get this off my chest. PS…you might want to look up carnicom.com, bariumblues.com and nanotechdisease.com, if you want to know the next threat comming down from the clouds ! HELLO
Quote Comment
June 29th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
david said:
A very small price to pay for the millions of lives they saved.
Yes, pharmaceuticals kill on occasion. We do all we can to avoid that, but it comes with the territory that on rare occasions they have a bad reaction. Penicillin, for example, can cause an allergic reaction which is occasionally fatal. A few people have died from this. But many of them would have died from the infection otherwise and it has saved countless lives.
The question one must ask about a naturopath: For the risk they create, however small, do they provide any benefit at all? If naturopathy leads to one death per year, but saves zero lives per year then it is unacceptable.
If open heart surgery leads to 6000 deaths on the operating table in a year but saves 300,000 lives, then it is still a worthwhile medical treatment.
Quote Comment
August 31st, 2009 at 11:54 pm
This is not directed to anyone but rather a piece of information.
My Father died of a heart attack 10 years ago and spent most of his years with frequent visits to the hospital, after he passed my mother became very weak and was on many meds and the doctors felt that she would probably not live much longer due to her condition. They did not offer anything besides more meds to help her continue. We had known about naturopath for years but never went forward and gave it a chance. Finally we decided to and we visited the Doctor in question and she provided several treatments along with diet adjustments. After only 3 months we visited our doctors again and they were astonished in her improvement and her no longer need for medication. It is now 10 years later and my mother is able to travel the world and enjoy her life to the fullest.
Something terrible happened in the death of this 84 year old man, but you can’t rule out that these methods don’t help people.
I rather you not reply to my message but if you feel the need we can meet in person and discuss….
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 12:23 am
mastafella said:
Frankly what you would or would not rather in the way of a reply is immaterial.
Your story is nothing but an anecdote, but nevertheless describes a woman devastated by the death of her husband and and having suffered from extreme stress from his frequent illnesses. She was clearly suffering from a psychosomatic condition brought about by stress that was helped by a psychosomatic cure. You haven’t told us anything new, or offered any proof that this treatment was anything more than what a good psychologist (or parish priest) could have done.
Oh and by the way I live in Montreal and if you care to discuss this with me in person, in public it can be arranged.
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 1:18 am
mastafella said:
Let me give you an opposing anecdote to show you why anecdotal “evidence” is not evidence at all. when I did my military service, one guy refused to wear the seatbelt in cars. Why? Becuase he ahd a relative, who had been in an accident, and someone told this relative that if he had had the setbelt on he would have died in that particular accident.
What does this anecdot tell us?
Nothing… except that this guy I did the service with was an idiot because the overwhelming statistics aboutseatbelt use means millions of lives are saved have been saved from death, or from serious injury.
Same thing here. We’re not going with vage “maybes”. That’s not how medicinal review and approval work you don’t use somthing that might help. If you are going to treat people with something, there are two conditions that must me met:
1) It must not hurt the patient.
2) It must have proved that is can help a patient.
We’re not dealing with “maybe” when it comes to people’s lives.
And even if that was the case… “maybe” does not apply to this branch of quackery. There are no mechanisms that can have any kind of effect by getting minerals shot into your body. It’s plain wrong. Whatever made him better I can bet you a hefty sum of money is wasn’t the naturopaths doings.
/Michael
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 1:42 am
mastafella said:
Sorry for your loss. It’s never easy losing someone close to us no matter how old they may be or what the circumstances.
mastafella said:
If her doctors did not advise her that changing her diet would be a major factor in helping her with her general health and her cardiac condition then those doctors were not competent. Diet and lifestyle is usually the first thing they tell you has to change.
In most cases, it’s not rocket science: most of us in the industrial world have a diet which is higher in daily caloric intake than optimal and is higher in fat, simple carbohydrates and cholesterol than we need.
My grandfather had a mild heart attack circa 1998. Before the heart attack he did not eat a very good diet. He loved his donuts. It took the heart attack to get him to listen to the doctors. They put him on meds but also told him he really had to cut back and eat healthier. He did and his condition improved dramatically. He lived a few more years after that. I really doubt he would have been able to last as long as he did if he had not changed his diet. (Whether he changed it enough is another thing, but at least he did some).
I’d be shocked if there were any cardiologist who did not consider diet one of the most important factors in maintaining good health.
mastafella said:
That’s not how it generally works. We don’t give a therapy on the basis that it might help and then continue giving it until we have proof that it doesn’t. First you prove that it does help and then provide it. “We can’t rule out that it is helpful” isn’t good enough.
One thing we do know is that it can be harmful. Something that we know is harmful in at least some cases must have proven benefits or it is worse than worthless.
mastafella said:
Sorry. If you don’t like your message replied to, you shouldn’t comment on an open blog. The whole point of this page is to encourage open discussion.
Sorry, but meeting is a little bit out of my way.
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 2:15 am
My comment was only to be heard not discussed, its a simple fact that my mother had diabetes and was taking so much medicine for high blood pressure that after the recommendation from this Doctor she was able to continue her life without visiting the pharmacy twice a week, Thanks to a Naturopath Doctor. While the other 5 experienced doctors were twiddling their thumbs and giving out false time lines my mother enjoys her life everyday.
Yes doctors gave her advise on how to improve her diet but they never expected that by following the Naturopath diet and treatments she could stop taking meds after a few months. When a doctor is surprised you start to question them
I regret posting because I know most people who reply to something that they were asked not to usually just like arguing for the sake of arguing.
I wish you all the best in your future quarrels and hope you get your title in most closed minded person in Montreal, you can find me almost every lunch at Ferriera
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 2:24 am
Feel free to get your own website without a commenting feature. Then you can put out information and nobody will respond to it on the site.
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 2:38 am
I take it you are referring to the café Ferreira on Peel? Are you sure your boss won’t mind you fighting with his customers while you wait on them?
If you want a discussion let’s make it public, say at one of the CEGEP debating clubs, I you are game mail me at dv82xl@gmail.com and we’ll set something up. College students make an ideal audience for this sort of thing. I can hardly wait to hear you tell them that you will expect them not to react to your remarks.
Who do think you are, even asking us not to respond?
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 2:51 am
What are we going to debate, “did her services help my mother live” If you want to talk you are more then welcome but I don’t have time to plan events for you to get your jollies off in a debate, most people are busy taking care of their families and trying to be helpful to the people around them. If you have problems with getting along with people maybe you should visit one of your recommend all in one solutions like a good psychologist (or parish priest).
By the way I am the guy your parents warned you about, the coolest guy ever
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 3:39 am
Michael Karnefors, did you use the word “naturist” when you meant “naturopath” or “naturopathic”?
I thought that “naturist” was synonymous with “nudist”…
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 4:19 am
As I though Mastafella you are all hot air. You are not fooling anyone reading this thread with your pathetic little attacks on me. Oh, and ‘the coolest guy ever’ would not be hanging out at a passé seafood place on Peel at lunch.
Peel – man you are almost a dozen blocks west from cool in Montreal.
Quote Comment
September 1st, 2009 at 4:52 am
George Carty said:
Hahaha!! Typo… I also accidentally wrote “his” instead of “her” above. Oh well, you know what I meant.
/Micke
Quote Comment